Cross Gender roleplay

[cczernia]

I was wondering what everyones opinion on Cross Gender roleplaying is? I personally don't mind it; some of my favorite characters have been woman. However, it seems to be a huge taboo here.

So, what is the deal? I don't see the difference in playing a elf, robot, or woman, but that is just me.

[Northman]

In my experience if the roleplaying style is not very "in character", more third person, then it's not a big deal. If the style of the group is more "in character" I have found that most guys don't play female characters well at all. The few women I've played with (including my wife) don't seem to play male characters well either.

So I haven't seen it work except in a very third person game - more wargaming and less roleplaying.

[Gotetsu]

I never had a problem with that. In fact in my on-again-off-again FR campaign that I have right now, one player (I won't say who, because he's a member of this board) plays a half-drow priestess of Elliastree. And she has to pray under moonlight by dancing naked with a sword. Potential for some bad things to happen to "Nachoist" players. But we all have fun with it (though everyone volunteers to take watch during her prayer time). :shock:

I think if the player does it right, there's nothing wrong with it. I personally won't do it because I don't understand women, and my female characters would probably be bull-dykes anyways, so what would be the point?

[Chulainn]

I think that to be able to RP the opposite gender one must understand them. Now how many males do you know that fully understand women or vise versa ? :D

I once saw a book titled "Everything a Man Knows About a Woman" it was entirely filled with blank pages.

As Northman stated it is very difficult to do well if in a heavy RP type of game. Combat is combat and then it make no difference.

C

[BlanchPrez]

[quote="Chulainn"]I think that to be able to RP the opposite gender one must understand them. Now how many males do you know that fully understand women or vise versa ? :D [/quote]

See, I find this comment funny. If this is true, then the same must go for RPing an alien thinking race, like elves or dwarves or wookies or what have you. Besides, if this statement is really true, then the same must be said about female characters in a novel. The author should know women to write them, right? No. You just need to know that character.



Besides, I don't buy into that whole "men don't understand women" thing. Women are people, just like men, and must be taken on an individual basis. I've known women that were more manly than some men, and I've known men that were very femmy (neither of these examples are gay, before anyone jumps there). In my experience with the world, personality types have less to do with gender than people would have you think.



Oh, and before anyone replies that the examples I gave above are the exception rather than the rule, my reply is this. In almost every RPG I've ever played, all the PC's are the exception to the rule. What difference does it make.



Besides, what does RPing a woman well mean? Does it mean I have to be worried about my hair and makeup? That I'm interested in the latest fashions out of Waterdeep? That I'm not into swords and heavy armour? Or is it just a matter of people saying that the guys they know that don't play women well only want to run hot chicks in chainmale bikini's?



I've played female characters throughout my time as a player, and especially as a DM (where you are often in the wierd position of RPing a players love interest) and have never treated them any different than my male characters. If the concept of the character I have in mind calls for the character to be female, then I do a female. For example, I am the player that Gotetsu mentioned above. I had this concept in mind for the cleric I wanted to make, and as the goddess I picked only has female clergy, that's what I ran. She's a cool character, and no one in the group is (overly) wierded out by her. Yes, she dances naked with a sword while praying to get her spells. But, only once have we RPed that as something happened to her during the prayer. Otherwise, it's just something that happens at night (off screen time, so to speak).



Okay, rant over.



Chris

[Gotetsu]

ROWWRR!!! HISSS!!!

Just kidding. :)

Actually, I think the part where you said most guys want to just play babes in chainmail bikinis is the problem. Most guys who want to do a good job RPing will just play guys because they know how to do that better.

And I have to say that those examples ARE the exceptions. How many women have fought historically the same way as men? True, in some societies, it was standard practice. The Vikings did it. But the thing is that Viking women weren't "fighters" they were "defenders" charged with protecting the home while the men were out pillaging and raiding. Very few, if any, actually went out on "adventures."

But getting back to the RP thing, this does bring up the question of why a woman player would play a female character? Well, in a fantasy setting, all things are possible. So, in a Fantasy culture women could be just as important as men in warfare (L5R even makes a point about making sure this is clear).

Now, here's another question. Thinking back to all of the female players you have had, how many actually played characters that were traditionally male (ie, Fighters, etc...)? From my experience, most women feel more comfortable playing mages, clerics, and the like. Just as most guys feel more comfortable with playing warriors and the like. And when you compare male to female mages, most male mages learn very aggressive, combat spells, while females tend to like the more non-combat spells.

It's just an extension of Social and Psychological Evolution. Males are built, mentally and physically for combat, and women are built for more cerebral pursuits.

Are there exceptions? Yes. Can a woman kick ass? Sure thing. Can a guy be caring and passive without being gay? Absolutely. But most guys who play RPGs are doing so to sort of live vicariously through their characters. So, they want to be bad-ass warriors (because, let's face it, gamers in general are not a physically capable bunch). So, why would they play a female character when a male will do just fine?

Ok, done with MY rant. :)

[CaptMDKirk]

This is an area of discussion that I've thought a lot about over the past year. NPCing females is okay for me, because usually it's some base dynamic that I can simulate (like coyness or familial affection). But I will never voluntarily play a female PC. Simply because of the fact that I don't think I'd make a very good woman. Although I will admit to having occasional fits of rash decision-making, so that might qualify me...

Seriously though, I am only weirded out by guys who play female PCs that actually flaunt the more feminine aspects of the character (not just the obvious sexual escapades that nachos would indulge in). Yes, I'm sheltered, deal with it.

[BreakfastOfChampions]

Word.

I think cross gender is alright. Though most men, and a lot of cross *dressers* tend to turn out as caracatures of women, not 'female' unto themselves.

Some, on the other hand, are very convincing.

I guess in theater when women couldn't play, men would play the women's parts and the women tended to be...exagerated.

I don't tend to rp sexuality much, so I'm not sure exactly how convincing I am when I rp female -- which tends to be rare. My bet is...probably not.

[Chulainn]

[quote="BlanchPrez"][quote:41f83acbe0="Chulainn"]I think that to be able to RP the opposite gender one must understand them. Now how many males do you know that fully understand women or vise versa ? :D [/quote]

See, I find this comment funny. If this is true, then the same must go for RPing an alien thinking race, like elves or dwarves or wookies or what have you.



Chris[/quote:41f83acbe0]



Point taken even though my post was meant on the sarcastic side. In a fantasy game (or Sci-fi) I could understand where you are coming from. I personally find it hard to play a female character(Just can not get into it).



C

[BlanchPrez]

[quote="Gotetsu"]Now, here's another question. Thinking back to all of the female players you have had, how many actually played characters that were traditionally male (ie, Fighters, etc...)? From my experience, most women feel more comfortable playing mages, clerics, and the like. Just as most guys feel more comfortable with playing warriors and the like. And when you compare male to female mages, most male mages learn very aggressive, combat spells, while females tend to like the more non-combat spells.[/quote]

Let's see... thinking back to the last three female characters I've played, I've had a cleric (the current one) a druid and a thief. The druid was a highly femenine character, and her personality was based on a girl I had dated at one point. The thief was into stealing any jewlery and gems over gold because she wanted to wear the jewlery. She came from a poor background, and thought that having lots of jewlerly led people to think she was from a higher social background. Finally, the current one is soft when she thinks your a good guy, but if you are evil (especially unrepentently evil) she whips out her bastard sword (favored weapon of her god, I will point out) and kicks ass.


[quote]Are there exceptions? Yes. Can a woman kick ass? Sure thing. Can a guy be caring and passive without being gay? Absolutely. But most guys who play RPGs are doing so to sort of live vicariously through their characters. So, they want to be bad-ass warriors (because, let's face it, gamers in general are not a physically capable bunch). So, why would they play a female character when a male will do just fine?[/quote]

Okay, I'll buy that some gamers want to be bad-asses in game because they're not in real life. I've made characters like that myself. But, as I stated before, the reason I make a character female is because that the way the concept of the character worked out. The half-drow cleric just wouldn't be half as interesting to me if she were male. Same goes for that thief character I mentioned above. I play a character because it's fun, not because it's something I'm not. EVERY character I play is something I'm not. ;)



Chris

[BlanchPrez]

[quote="Chulainn"]Point taken even though my post was meant on the sarcastic side. In a fantasy game (or Sci-fi) I could understand where you are coming from. I personally find it hard to play a female character(Just can not get into it).



C[/quote]

I understand that you were being sarcastic. I wasn't trying to jump down your throat (sorry if I came across that way). This is an old debate for me (and one that Gotetsu and I have been having off and on for years now ]no[/i] guy can play a women character, for the reasons you listed, to which I reply as I did. :)



Chris

[Gotetsu]

Ok, you completely skirted my point here. I asked how many female players played "male" type characters. Last time I checked, you're not female. Unless there's something you're not telling me. ;)

However, I understand your point. But, by your examples, the female characters you played demonstrated predominantly "female" traits. Yet those traits are like BoC said, characitures of females. They're socially excepted patterns of behaviour, but not very accurate.

My point is that most people will play characters in a manner that befits their gender/personality type. Guys will play generally masculine characters, and girls will play generally feminine characters. So, they will generally not "cross-play." Besides, women solve problems differently than men. And vice versa. That's what is meant when we say the sexes don't understand each other. I know I don't think like a woman. And sometimes, I just don't understand how they DO think. That's what it's all about. :)

[BreakfastOfChampions]

You know, if I really wanted to play a good female I think I'd have to do the following:

1) Find some books on the subject. Like 'Men are from Mars...' or something wacky like that. Maybe not. It think a dude wrote it, but maybe its a starting point because I'd want to approach a female character as if I knew nothing about them.

2) Probably pick a follow from the dances to emulate. I know several and they all are different. So, if I'm going to pick a character, I'd have to pick a personality to emulate. Hopefully one closer to my mindset or the character I wanted to play.

3) Watch Lifetime? Bah! Back to charicature again.

[BlanchPrez]

[quote="Gotetsu"]Ok, you completely skirted my point here. I asked how many female players played "male" type characters. Last time I checked, you're not female. Unless there's something you're not telling me. ]



Oooops... missunderstood. Sorry. Okay, answering this question, out of the maybe 10 women that I know that RP in the first place, about half of them liked to run kick-ass fighter types. But then, they were strong willed, tough women in real-life as well. ;) I get your point, though. And, yes, there is lots of things I'm not telling you, but none of them are that. ;)


[quote]My point is that most people will play characters in a manner that befits their gender/personality type. Guys will play generally masculine characters, and girls will play generally feminine characters. So, they will generally not "cross-play." Besides, women solve problems differently than men. And vice versa. That's what is meant when we say the sexes don't understand each other. I know I don't think like a woman. And sometimes, I just don't understand how they DO think. That's what it's all about. :)[/quote][/quote]

Okay, I'm not going to argue with this point, as it's valid. I'm just saying its not [i]impossible[/i] to understand how a woman thinks.



On the subject of my female characters being charicatures of women, you're probably right. However, honestly, all of my characters, male, female or otherwise, are probably all charicatures of one sort or another.



Chris

[BlanchPrez]

[quote="BreakfastOfChampions"]2) Probably pick a follow from the dances to emulate. I know several and they all are different. So, if I'm going to pick a character, I'd have to pick a personality to emulate. Hopefully one closer to my mindset or the character I wanted to play.[/quote]

Not entierly sure what "follow from the dances" means, but otherwise I agree with this. It's what I usually do with all my characters. I pick a personality that I want the character to have, and try to RP to that personality. I don't always suceed, but that my goal.



Chris

[Gotetsu]

[quote="BlanchPrez"]And, yes, there is lots of things I'm not telling you, but none of them are that. ]

Ok, now I'm scared. :shock:

[BreakfastOfChampions]

Note about guys running chicks:

No schoolgirls. Please. None. Nada.

Hot female ninjas? No. Stop.

Lesbians? You're toeing a line here.

[Gotetsu]

[quote="BreakfastOfChampions"]Lesbians? You're toeing a line here.[/quote]

Actually, Lesbians would be the easiest to play for most guys. I mean, afterall, are we not all Lesbians trapped in Men's bodies? :lol:



One of these days I'm going to play an ugly female lesbian. Actualy, I kinda do in my IWD2 game. I have a female half-orc barbarian. :)

[BreakfastOfChampions]

Ummm no. That's the prob. :P

"I've been munching this carpet for hours now, and I don't feel like a lesbian yet!" -- South Park.

[mordraine]

[quote="BreakfastOfChampions"]"I've been munching this carpet for hours now, and I don't feel like a lesbian yet!" -- South Park.[/quote]

Funniest line I ever saw on TV!



Anyway, my .02 on the subject:



For the most part I agree with my brother, BlanchPrez. The best way to play [i]any[/i] character is to get inside his/her head and figure out what makes him/her tick as an individual. Once you do that, gender is a non-issue.



As a GM, I've had the opportunity to play many and varied women. Can't really get around it. I've also played 5 year old kids and old men and completely alien monsters.



I know one woman who I've gamed with online for a few years now, who plays male and female characters on a 50/50 basis. She does both convincingly and well. Her current male character is a very cold-blooded Irish Assamite vampire. Great character.



I think I'm not the typical male RPer because I don't ever remember creating a character so I could vicariously kick-ass. Most of my characters are cerebral. I prefer the mage over the fighter.



I wrote a Dark Ages Werewolf short story for a White Wolf contest once, and my main character was a woman. IMHO, I think I portrayed her decently, and I think I was able to pull it off because I knew my character (although I didn't win squat, so what do I know?).

[Chulainn]

[quote="BlanchPrez"][quote:1502e4f495="Chulainn"]Point taken even though my post was meant on the sarcastic side. In a fantasy game (or Sci-fi) I could understand where you are coming from. I personally find it hard to play a female character(Just can not get into it).



C[/quote]

I understand that you were being sarcastic. I wasn't trying to jump down your throat (sorry if I came across that way). This is an old debate for me (and one that Gotetsu and I have been having off and on for years now ]no[/i] guy can play a women character, for the reasons you listed, to which I reply as I did. :)



Chris[/quote:1502e4f495]



No problem. I did not take it negatively. I just wanted you to know where I really stood. Not ALL gamers can do cross gender. I know that there are some gamers who do it well. I personally am not good at it, strictly because I can not fully get into a cross gender character and therefore it is not fun.



C

[Wintermute]

Some guys do a great job of playing female characters. A lot don't. The same can actually be said about playing an elf, an alien, a kid, anything aside from the traits describing the player himself. Certainly there is a learning curve, and so long as the player is making an effort to understand their character, it's all good.

Unfortunately, when it goes bad, it's bad. I'm honestly not sure what's worse, having the 300 lb guy across from you hitting on you in character because he plays female characters as sluts, or having the 300 lb guy across from you hitting on you in character because his character has a high charisma and wants your female character to be played as a slut. There are a lot of gender stereotypes, and it's important to know which ones to drop and which ones to keep to make a realistic character.

Finally, it seems like a few guys play female characters as a form of sexual gratification. To each their own, but personally I prefer to keep the two persuits fairly independent.

[BreakfastOfChampions]

I totally agree with Winter. Some guys can roleplay a female role convincingly. Others are just guys with strap on vaginas.

I'm not a great actor, and its tough for me to play things further and further away from me.

But every once in a while, its fun to try.

I remember one player who *really* wanted to play a Drow Elf. I explained my take on Drow, and he immediately didn't want to play when I explained that much of Drow culture viewed sex as a power relationship, and that for many Drow, as a culture, the gender mattered little as opposed to the resulting power relationship.

"No man! Drow are straight!"

My favorite bit of trolling on IRC boards.

"I've got a question. Lets say in my fantasy world there's a force so evil that all the elves unite to defeat it"

(implasuable yes, but this never seemed to be much of an issue. The gamers thought it was kewl)

"But unfortunately, even all the elves united cannot defeat it, and they are captured. So my question is..."

"Which species of elf goes gay first?"

*run*run*run*

[Gotetsu]

That's trick question, as all elves are inherintly bisexual, if not full blown gay. Why do you think they have so few children compared to such long lives? It takes hundreds of years to get up the guts to go against your sexual orientation for breeding purposes. :)

Wait a sec...uh...my DL character is an Elf.

Well, he's the exception to the rule. Cuz, yeah. He's a stud. He get's jiggy with all of the ladies. Yeah. That's it. :oops:

[BreakfastOfChampions]

A lot of the people with senses of humor would go for that answer:

"What do you mean 'go gay' They're *there*"

[Gotetsu]

Exactly. But some people on this board don't seem to have a sense of humor. :shock:

[Foxbat]

[quote="Gotetsu"]That's trick question, as all elves are inherintly bisexual, if not full blown gay. Why do you think they have so few children compared to such long lives? It takes hundreds of years to get up the guts to go against your sexual orientation for breeding purposes. :)



Wait a sec...uh...my DL character is an Elf.



Well, he's the exception to the rule. Cuz, yeah. He's a stud. He get's jiggy with all of the ladies. Yeah. That's it. :oops:[/quote]

No, we all know how rangers help lost travelers...



Daniel

[Gotetsu]

"You know, I could help you out of this forest." ::Leans in:: "For a price."

::Cue 70's Porno Music::

[BlanchPrez]

[quote="Gotetsu"]Well, he's the exception to the rule. Cuz, yeah. He's a stud. He get's jiggy with all of the ladies. Yeah. That's it. :oops:[/quote]

You breeder!









;)



Chris

[Gotetsu]

[quote="BlanchPrez"]You breeder![/quote]

Ok, first you tell me that you have secrets, now you call me a "breeder." Chris, are you smoking pole on the side? If so, come to my room tonight, and I'll put you to work. [img]http://jm.g.free.fr/smileys/Xsmileys/sex_algida.gif[/img]

[BreakfastOfChampions]

Strange. I always play fighters with Rods of Lordly Might.

Hrmm. Maybe my poor fighter is compensating?

[Count Zero]

Personally, I have found the guys who want to role-play women are usually creepy. I, as a rule, don't allow cross-gender RPing. Why? Because most guys fail to pull it off. They make the woman one of three things... a whore, a virgin, or a bitch. For guys, there are usually no other types of women. This has to do with how women are portrayed in our culture. The three examples above are classic male ways to portray a women that have been used in bad literature over and over again, except the third one is a development since the rise of Femenisim.

I finally broke that rule and trusted CCrzina to run a woman in my super hero game. He does a good job. Of course his character is a woman in a non-traditionaly role so it isn't hard to do. If his character were a housewife or a noble... then it might be.

The reason I avoid it primarily though, is I get tired of the guys who are total dumbasses depicting women as whiney or bitchy. It is usually sexist men who are depicting women with old, outdated concepts. I simply don't want to have to watch my fiance spending 40 minutes having to "educate" him. Being engaged and having a very independant and liberate woman as a soon to be wife has opened my eyes to alot of the bullshit women have to deal with. Seeing guys basically be sexists really makes me angry now because I think about how it must make a woman feel. That is my main reason for outlawing men playing women.

On another note, that is also my main reason for not going to Game Empire. When my fiance and almost every other woman I speak to feel so uncomfortable they have to leave after five minutes, it tells me that I shouldn't patronize such a place. Of course maybe what they need is my fiance "educating" there dumb asses... :P

Jonathan

Jonathan

[mordraine]

[quote="Count Zero"]Personally, I have found the guys who want to role-play women are usually creepy. I, as a rule, don't allow cross-gender RPing. Why? Because most guys fail to pull it off. They make the woman one of three things... a whore, a virgin, or a bitch. [/quote]

You need to broaden your array of guy associations! ;)



Seriously though, thinking about many of the guys I've met on these board, I don't doubt that if given the opportunity to run a woman character, most of us would do a half-way decent job.



There are some meatheads out there who see women as only whores, virgins or bitches. But there are also a host of intelligent, sensitive men who are actually *gasp* enlightened. And they might even play an RPG or two.

[BreakfastOfChampions]

Hmmm interesting ideas.

I guess when I build a character, I think of motivations and interests of the character. Gender...doesn't play that strongly. I think if I played a female character, I'd still be working off the motovations and the interests of the character.

Perhaps, if I wanted to be more 'feminine' I'd have to figure out how that character feels about being 'feminine'. I'd want to pick the differences and see what came of them. Do I like to shop? Where do I get my hair done? Do I like girly clothes, or am I more practical. Heels or Flats?

In my d20 Modern Game (online) I have one female player, playing a female, and two male players playing males. The female wanted a character like Uma Thurman in Kill Bill, but edgier. She was very interested in being beautiful, but when she described herself, it wasn't in numbers :). She likes using her good looks to get ahead, but in a much more subtle fashion. When a guy playing a fem tries that, many times they use cleavage, she uses a smile.

Possibly the most amusing thing is she has built a combat goddess. For melee combat, she's *damn* dangerous, even at relatively low level. The male heroes, while I admire their dedication to wanting to play a role, felt they were being creative by making the classes they chose not play the role. In any event, they aren't that great at combat, which is perfectly fine until they decide she should stay behind and they should get into danger. They, while being powerful characters in their own right, get seriously wounded in fights that are designed to be a challenge to yon combat goddess. I'm still waiting for them to figure this out. :)

[Count Zero]

[quote="mordraine"][quote:10ad25e8d7="Count Zero"]Personally, I have found the guys who want to role-play women are usually creepy. I, as a rule, don't allow cross-gender RPing. Why? Because most guys fail to pull it off. They make the woman one of three things... a whore, a virgin, or a bitch. [/quote]

You need to broaden your array of guy associations! ]



Actually I have read a number of the posts on this forum to my fiance.... she often didn't have nice replies....



Jonathan

[Count Zero]

[quote="BreakfastOfChampions"]Hmmm interesting ideas.



Perhaps, if I wanted to be more 'feminine' I'd have to figure out how that character feels about being 'feminine'. I'd want to pick the differences and see what came of them. Do I like to shop? Where do I get my hair done? Do I like girly clothes, or am I more practical. Heels or Flats?


[/quote]

Heels? Flats? Yeah that's it... because guys don't like to shop. Guys don't like to have smooth clothes and look like a "playa"



That is the kind of shit I am talking about... that is an aspect to sexism. If I were to model a character off my fiance, I wouldn't be thinking about whether or not she likes heals of flats.... my fiance loves art, is facinated by physics and math. loves puzzles, really enjoys gardening even if her tomato plant keeps dying (lazy fucking plant). If I fell bad to sterotypes like shopping and clothes.... I wouldn't do her justice and when we do that with female characters we do an injustice to women. Are there women who are obsessed with shopping and being petty. Of course there are is. But, is that really the normal, realistic woman? No, of course not. So why waist time having those as characters.



See, the reason I let Chris play a woman in my game is because he didn't define his character by what are considered femeine aspects. I could tell by the way he described his character that he would do it justice and he wouldn't be trying to fuck all the other player characters and NPC's. He would do it right.



Jonathan

[BreakfastOfChampions]

[quote="Count Zero"]
Actually I have read a number of the posts on this forum to my fiance.... she often didn't have nice replies....

Jonathan[/quote]

Not a surprise. After watching female characters get bastardized all in movies, books, and TV its certainly hard to think that anyone could do a good job.



I'm not sure I could. A lot would depend on how 'feminine' I was expected to be.



On the other hand, its also hard when you're playing in a 'historical' Arthurian game, and a woman wants to play a woman who is pretending to be a male knight. :roll: The dark ages is a *terrible* time to be a woman, and the only solution we could come up with was to roll the game forward to the more civilized Arthurian time.



High fantasy settings tend to be much more egalitarian, but usually run into the woman as played by fantasy loving guy syndrome.



In a way, its strange, because there are so many different types of *people* that I'm not sure you could capture what would make a female character female, because so much would depend on the personality.

[Gotetsu]

Ok, I feel the need to step on some toes and offend some people here. So, I apologize in advance.

CZ, I am very offended by your remarks about most guys being sexist. To me that is tantamount to blacks, excuse me, "African Americans" calling me racist because I’m white (mostly), then turning around and whining because they don’t get special treatment because of their skin color.

I can understand your fiancé’s disdain for offensive advertising and commentary. But I doubt she needs to be "educating" anyone. Most people who feel it necessary to "educate" others on the way they should think or act, should probably take a look in the mirror.

Feminism is like any other "ism." It’s dangerous in large doses. I wonder if women think of how they treat guys? My experience has been that women who are self-professed feminists treat their men like dirt. They dominate them. They force them to change their habits, likes, dislikes, and mannerisms to fit what they want. But women are cunning creatures and they do it in subtle ways. The "Cold Logic" play, the "Guilt Trip" (my ex’s favorite), and yes, the sexual attack (what’s usually the first thing a woman says when her man pisses her off? "Guess who’s not getting any tonight?") My point is that neither sex is better or worse. We are all here together, and for a reason. If we got along perfectly the world would destroy itself because we would all be pro-creating like rabbits with everyone we could.

Now, all of that being said, let it be known that I don’t hate women. In fact I think I probably love them more than is healthy sometimes. My point is, anyone, man or woman, should think about what they do, and how they treat people, before they start "educating" the rest of us on inter-gender/interracial/inter-anything etiquette.

And back on the RP thing, guess what, sometimes a woman is a whore/virgin/bitch (sometimes all three, depending on her mood). Just like sometimes a guy is an uncaring, insensitive, sexist prick. So, what’s wrong with playing a character like that? And honestly, I don’t think an RP session is the right place to discuss feminist rights, and social equality. Talk about a fun-killer.

If my female character is acting like a bitch, it’s not because I don’t know how a woman acts or thinks, it’s because my character is a bitch.

Ok, I’m done. And once again, I apologize for offending anyone. I just wanted to have my say.

[Count Zero]

[quote="BreakfastOfChampions"]On the other hand, its also hard when you're playing in a 'historical' Arthurian game, and a woman wants to play a woman who is pretending to be a male knight. :roll: The dark ages is a *terrible* time to be a woman, and the only solution we could come up with was to roll the game forward to the more civilized Arthurian time.
[/quote]

Actually it sounds like it would be an interesting role-playing experience to be have a male play a female character... kind of give men some perspective. As a whole, though. If you do proper research it could be a very interesting set of stories to have anyone play a female poseing as a male in the Dark Ages...



When I run fantasy, it is usually very historical. I like the grittyness of it.



For me and gaming... I had a friend that always tried to inject some aspect of education or discussion into role-playing. He saw role-playing as a chance for it to be sort of like an analysis of morality and such. Effectively they were moral discussions center around a setting. We discussed how to do this on a regular occassion. The thing that stopped us was never being able to find players adult enough to do it. It always broke down to... "I waste him with my crossbow".



If you don't quite get what I am talking about here was his most classic example. A vampire game that took place throughout the ages was a discussion on immortality and the morality of having to kill in order to live forever.



I this concept in my super hero game. I am using real world events (i.e. war in Iraq and similar stuff) and have set up a newspaper from the world in order help with this "discussion". Here... check it out... [url]http://worldobserver.rpgmainframe.com/world.htm[/url]



In the most recent sessions I have hit on the themes of the dark side of patriotism and nationalism. I am sure Cczenia will attest to the frustration the group suffered with the last adventure.



I am also looking at the following themes:



- The statement of "The ends justify the means" and how someone could apply that could be taken to far.

- The dark side of religious faith

- man's drive to conflict and violence

- what really makes us human

- the corruption of power



These are all themes which can easily explored through role-playing and I hope as I get more into the swing of things I hope to actually generate some form of discussion too... maybe I am just weird.



Jonathan

[BreakfastOfChampions]

Wow, mark this day on a calendar. We're in agreement.



I can't have that, so I'm going to pick and comment on some things that are minor. I don't mean offense, but you either have hit on topics I think are larger than mentioned or little bits of coolness.


[quote="Gotetsu"]
CZ, I am very offended by your remarks about most guys being sexist. To me that is tantamount to blacks, excuse me, "African Americans" calling me racist because I’m white (mostly), then turning around and whining because they don’t get special treatment because of their skin color.
[/quote]
Good point, but you have just turned around and done what you didn't like having done to you. The only issue is the excusion of *most*. I agree that most guys are not sexist in the destructive mode. I *do* think that we've been conditioned, and shit happens. We control what we can, and let future generations do better. While the comment about most guys being sexist is tantamount to the blacks white bashing, I think both situations are small extremes on a large scale. For example, going out swing dancing, I meet lots of very nice older couples (70's to 80s) these folks are nice, friendly and sharp. But you know what, they still talk about Japs and Kikes. I haven't heard 'nigger' yet. But I wouldn't be surprised. I can't just throw a black hat on these folks. Their world was different. Now if they pushed those views forward, I'd stand my ground, but it happens just rare enough for me to have to check my responses.


[quote="Gotetsu"]
I can understand your fiancé’s disdain for offensive advertising and commentary. But I doubt she needs to be "educating" anyone. Most people who feel it necessary to "educate" others on the way they should think or act, should probably take a look in the mirror.
[/quote]
Perhaps. And perhaps people who want people to look in the mirror when they point out flaws in other people's characters are merely saying 'I know you are, but what am I?' See how this becomes a wacky circle? As Ackbar would say, "ITS A TRAP!". Following this path leads to a mental knot I think. I think there's some sort of phrase of 'When you point at someone, you have four fingers pointing back at you." But the statement itself is pointing, and so you're ... oh boy


[quote="Gotetsu"]
Feminism is like any other "ism." It’s dangerous in large doses.
[/quote]
Word.


[quote="Gotetsu"]
I wonder if women think of how they treat guys?
[/quote]
Probably as much as guys think about how they treat women. In varying degrees, with differing amounts of introspection and projection, and a host of psychological terms I am neither aware of nor qualified to use. How we treat each other as human beings is a potpourri, and no two relationships are the same.


[quote="Gotetsu"]
We are all here together, and for a reason.
[/quote]

I'd debate you big time on that. But its an issue of faith, so its all good.


[quote="Gotetsu"]
Now, all of that being said, let it be known that I don’t hate women. In fact I think I probably love them more than is healthy sometimes.
[/quote]

One of the aspects of the 'Tree of Life' of mystical Judeaism is that humanity is not incomplete because this too little of the godly aspects (love, devotion, justice) in the world, but because there is too much, and they are not in check.


[quote="Gotetsu"]
My point is, anyone, man or woman, should think about what they do, and how they treat people, before they start "educating" the rest of us on inter-gender/interracial/inter-anything etiquette.
[/quote]
Word. And after they have thought, they can speak. I might not like what they say, but the opposite of love is not hate, but indifference. At least they care enough to *say* something.


[quote="Gotetsu"]
And back on the RP thing, guess what, sometimes a woman [b]is[/b] a whore/virgin/bitch (sometimes all three, depending on her mood). Just like sometimes a guy is an uncaring, insensitive, sexist prick. So, what’s wrong with playing a character like that? And honestly, I don’t think an RP session is the right place to discuss feminist rights, and social equality. Talk about a fun-killer.
[/quote]
Lots of games explore these issues. They don't have to be fun-killers. They do require cool-headed players and a detatchment from reality. I think its why so many fantasy games are so egalitarian, because its the only way we seem to work out this crap. Most of it is just silly because there is no easy issue. Salvatore in one of his Drizzt books waxed eloquently about how the drow were egalitarian because no matter if the Drow was unarmed, they always had their magical powers. It was a serious bit of claptrap that really did in the books for me, because it was that 'everything will be alright with magic' kind of starry-eyed BS that steals from reality.


[quote="Gotetsu"]
If my female character is acting like a bitch, it’s not because I don’t know how a woman acts or thinks, it’s because my character is a bitch.
[/quote]
And sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Its the *pattern* that matters.


[quote="Gotetsu"]
Ok, I’m done. And once again, I apologize for offending anyone. I just wanted to have my say.[/quote]

Thanks for your well-thought out comments.

[Gotetsu]

Yeah, I know that some of my comments made me just as guilty as those I was bashing. The difference I know I am imperfect, but I just do the best I can. I don't need to be preached at about these issues.

And on the "reason" for us being here together, it's all subjective. My reason may be different than yours, but you can't (well, I guess you can, actually) deny that we all have some "reason" for being. And it may or not be religious.

And yeah, I occasionally have moments of logical thinking. But don't worry, they don't interfere too much with my Meathead-Fanboy persona that you have all come to love and rely on. :)

[BreakfastOfChampions]

[quote="Gotetsu"]Yeah, I know that some of my comments made me just as guilty as those I was bashing. The difference I know I am imperfect, but I just do the best I can. I don't need to be preached at about these issues.
[/quote]
How do you *know* that they don't know they are imperfect? You don't. But it does provide a rhetroical high ground for you to say that you're doing the wrong thing for the right reasons. Its too easy to take someone who has passion in their convictions to label them a zealot. Its also hubris, and a total trap.


[quote="Gotetsu"]


And on the "reason" for us being here together, it's all subjective. My reason may be different than yours, but you can't (well, I guess you can, actually) deny that we all have some "reason" for being. And it may or not be religious.
[/quote]

Anyone can deny a reason for being. Or that perhaps that reason is already passed, and you are just living the rest of your alloted span. What if your reason for being is to serve as a bad example to others? If you knew you had a purpose, and what that purpose was, would you fight it? Or would you go along with it? Do we have free will? Mmm yummy brain knots.

[Gotetsu]

I meant that I know that I am imperfect, but whether anyone else knows this about themselves is a mystery to me. I can only say things about my own mind.

But when someone tries "educate" others on subjects like this, it doesn't present much evidence to their own self-awareness.

There is a reason for everyone. Even if it's only to process waste, and pro-create.

OUCH! My brain hurts.

[BlanchPrez]

Okay, I'm going to make one last statement here.

Am I a woman? No.

Can I think like a woman? Probably not, see question 1.

Does this mean that I can't play a woman in a FICTIONAL, MADE-UP world for a GAME? No.

Sexest thoughts/behaivors/et al and femminisim aside, let's not forget that this is a game, played in a fictional world that has no bearing on the real world.

If a GM want's to play historical games set in real world history, cool, that's his choice. Just like he he decides that he doesn't want guys playing women, or women playing guys, because he thinks they can't "play the other gender convincingly," cool, its his table, whatever works for him and his group.

But here's the word that bugs me about that line of thought. "Convincingly." What's that mean? What does it mean to play a woman "convincingly?"

Count Zero, I would love for you to get your fiance to give us a defination of what a "convincingly" portrayed woman is. I'm betting it's a lot more difficult that she thinks.

Back to my first point, this is a game, with no connection to the real world. If I want to play a guy who's a big, bad-ass psycho with a huge sword, everyone thinks it's okay. Hokey, but okay. But if I make that same character a woman, suddenly it's sexest, and not allowed because it's not how a "real" woman would act, or be, or think. And yet, I'm the sexest for making that character.

As I stated before, I've known plenty of real women that, when they played, played the character described above. I've also known women who played sluts/virgins/bitches. Why? For the same reason that some men play buff, macho killing machines. It's fun for them. Is it fun for everyone? No. But just because it's not fun for you doesn't make you morally superior.

Chris

[BreakfastOfChampions]

[quote="Gotetsu"]I meant that I know that [b]I[/b] am imperfect, but whether anyone else knows this about themselves is a mystery to me. I can only say things about my own mind.
[/quote]
Okay, I misread you. I totally agree with this. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt on such matters, figuring if I can do it, anyone can. This however, is a trap in itself, as then I start expecting people to write Windows Services.


[quote="Gotetsu"]
But when someone tries "educate" others on subjects like this, it doesn't present much evidence to their own self-awareness.
[/quote]
But we try to 'educate' each other all the time. We might not call it education but we through any communication interract with memes. We're doing it right now. It points back to that 'level of detachment' where its easier to write someone off as a drewling fanboy rather than as a rational, thinking person, who being human has irrational, emotional moments.

There is a reason for everyone. Even if it's only to process waste, and pro-create.


[quote="Gotetsu"]
OUCH! My brain hurts. :smash:[/quote]
amen

[Gotetsu]

[quote="BlanchPrez"]Am I a woman? No.[/quote]

Well, the hair kinda does throw me off sometimes. ;)

[BlanchPrez]

[quote="Gotetsu"][quote:3fe264b32d="BlanchPrez"]Am I a woman? No.[/quote]

Well, the hair kinda does throw me off sometimes. ]



Thus the reason I have a gotee. It helps in those situations where you're not sure. ;)



Chris

[BreakfastOfChampions]

But that just means you're an Italian woman.

*run*run*run*

[Gotetsu]

Yeah, I bet he has a really hairy bush. :shcok:

Remember that character from "Slingblade"? The one who talked too much in the mental hospital?

[Count Zero]

[quote="Gotetsu"]


CZ, I am very offended by your remarks about most guys being sexist. To me that is tantamount to blacks, excuse me, "African Americans" calling me racist because I’m white (mostly), then turning around and whining because they don’t get special treatment because of their skin color.
[/quote]

You shouldn't be... the fact is most guys are on a level they don't even realize. I thought I was pretty non-sexist... my fiance woke me up to a lot of it. The conditioning is pretty subtle. Both women and men are conditioned. They don't even realize it.


[quote="Gotetsu"]
I can understand your fiancé’s disdain for offensive advertising and commentary. But I doubt she needs to be "educating" anyone. Most people who feel it necessary to "educate" others on the way they should think or act, should probably take a look in the mirror.



Feminism is like any other "ism." It’s dangerous in large doses. I wonder if women think of how they treat guys? My experience has been that women who are self-professed feminists treat their men like dirt. They dominate them. They force them to change their habits, likes, dislikes, and mannerisms to fit what they want. But women are cunning creatures and they do it in subtle ways. The "Cold Logic" play, the "Guilt Trip" (my ex’s favorite), and yes, the sexual attack (what’s usually the first thing a woman says when her man pisses her off? "Guess who’s not getting any tonight?") My point is that neither sex is better or worse. We are all here together, and for a reason. If we got along perfectly the world would destroy itself because we would all be pro-creating like rabbits with everyone we could.
[/quote]

You are misunderstanding Femnism. It has been trained into you by conservative media that Femenists are bad... they are evil... trying to take away the role of men.



The effort by conservatives has been so effective that a survey of my Vietnam history class only one of the 50 people in the class said they were a feminist. Then he gave the definition.



.. here is the definition straight from Websters.





feminismn.

1 [Rare] feminine qualities

2 a) the principle that woman should have political, economic, and social rights equal to those of men b) the movement to win such rights for women



This doesn't seem to bad



After that almost everyone raised their hand. Except for those rare hicks... after all it was a college in Kansas.



The women who are treating men bad aren't being feminists... they are practicing Female Chauvinismn



Chauvinismn.

1. militant, unreasoning, and boastful devotion to one‘s country]



Now, all of that being said, let it be known that I don’t hate women. In fact I think I probably love them more than is healthy sometimes. My point is, anyone, man or woman, should think about what they do, and how they treat people, before they start "educating" the rest of us on inter-gender/interracial/inter-anything etiquette.

[/quote]



See above statements....


[quote="Gotetsu"]
And back on the RP thing, guess what, sometimes a woman [b]is[/b] a whore/virgin/bitch (sometimes all three, depending on her mood). Just like sometimes a guy is an uncaring, insensitive, sexist prick. So, what’s wrong with playing a character like that? And honestly, I don’t think an RP session is the right place to discuss feminist rights, and social equality. Talk about a fun-killer.



If my female character is acting like a bitch, it’s not because I don’t know how a woman acts or thinks, it’s because my character is a bitch.
[/quote]

But do women act like whores/virgins/bitches all the time? No... they are a mixture of the three plus all the other aspects that makes a person, a person. Just like guys aren't always insensitive pricks all the time.



The problem with most guys RPing women is they focus on one of those three solely in spite of the others becuase they have cultural perceptions of what a woman is. These come from a variety of places: TV, Books, Movies, friends and family. But could you really place your mother into one of those three categories above. Probably not.... and probably wouldn't want to (the whore associated with your mom.... ewwww) :P



Here is the trick... when you are making a female character... use your mother as a model....great... all I will ever get to say is how stupid I am... :lol:



While I don't expect a RPing session to degrade (yes, degrade... it would suck) into a discussion of on women's rights. It is interesting and fun to touch on the issues. Things like that make a game deeper. Sure it is fun to cap a guy with a 7.62mm sniper rifle at 1000 meters, but that gets old. If that is all you are going to do (i.e. action), then play a tactical game and stop trying to be a role-player.



Jonathan