Prop 85 Parental Notification

Nuke an unborn gay whale... for Jesus!
User avatar
mongo
Newbie
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 2:34 pm
Location: Escondido

Buried in the dung.

Post by mongo »


[quote="mongo"]
I have to sign consent forms for my kid to go on field trips, because if their is some tragic accident, the school doesn't want to face litigation, even if they may be grossly negligent. Every individual case has factors involved, that cannot be solved by a "catch all" law, voted into effect by less than half of the population, who may or may not even be parents. I oppose any law, or mandate, that seeks to protect/regulate things "On my behalf", or for the "Good" of my children. I, with my childrens input, will decide what is best for them. If a parent "beats" his kid, for any reason, there are agencies, and laws in place, to protect that child. If the child needs to be taken from the parent, because the parent is a butt head, then so be it. After all of that, if the child is emancipated, and decides to get an abortion, then let the responsibility lay where it belongs.



The failures of other parents, shouldn't allow my children to place themselves into a life changing, potentially hazardous decision alone, or with the "counselling" of strangers. They are under enough stress, with peer pressure, hormonal changes, and self image issues. Now legislation might allow them to bear an even greater burden, all on their own.



From Mad Douglas (Mongo)[/quote]


Well, this is my stance, sorry to have to point it out, but it was buried amidst all that other dialog. No devil's advocating, just my view on the situation. From Mad Douglas (Mongo)

Pain is temporary, Pride is forever.
User avatar
Shin Kenshiro
Mustachioed Pugilist
Posts: 830
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2003 10:31 pm

Post by Shin Kenshiro »


[quote="Neuro"]It's of little consequence until girls kill themselves or deliver their own babies in secret or get illegal abortions and die from it. Then it's of pretty big consequence for the whole family. Definitely a bigger oh-shit moment than a pregnancy. The government won't really hold the parents accountable in that situation. The girl will be dead.[/quote]

If the girl has the kid in secret then the parent of the new mother is now responsible for TWO kids as the first can't even legally take care of herself. Pulling a stunt like this is something that SHOULD bring about the ass kicking so terribly feared to begin with; followed by disowning the child and kicking both out at the mom's 18th birthday. If the girl wants to commit suicide over her fear, so be it. A person like that has no business being a parent in the first place. Getting an illegal abortion is retarded as well. The notion of putting your own life at risk to illegally do something that is legal JUST so your parents don't find out?



Fear has the tendency to make humans do dumb things. Oftentimes VERY dumb things...but just because I understand why they do them doesn't mean I am supposed to sypathize for their plight. Anyone willing to go to such extreme measures out of fear what their parents COULD do is gambling in an immensely stupid way. The vast majority of women (as there will always be exceptions to the rule) on this planet have a very big difficulty hiding the fact that they're pregnant. If the family cares for their child, the pregnancy bomb will be big but can be overcome. If they abuse the child or just don't care, than any "Oh shit" moment that comes from that child will be ignored.



I cannot have sympathy for incredibly rash and stupid actions.

To know me is to fear me, to fear me is to be human
User avatar
Neuro
Valorous Knight
Posts: 3560
Joined: Fri May 16, 2003 11:00 am
Location: Olivenhain
Contact:

Post by Neuro »


[quote="Shin Kenshiro"]I cannot have sympathy for incredibly rash and stupid actions.[/quote]

I believe people get what they ultimately search for. If you want justice, may you receive justice.



May the rest of us receive comfort and mercy.

"I need no mask to speak with you. Unlike my brother. I create my own personality. Personality is my medium."

--Neuromancer, William Gibson
User avatar
smartmonkey
Dessicated Mummy
Posts: 3825
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2003 11:00 am
Location: Driving the Short Bus to Hell

Post by smartmonkey »


[quote]

May the rest of us receive comfort and mercy. [/quote]


Word.

Email: Morgangilbert01 @ gmail.com

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Morgan_Gilbert/577987881

"If it weren't for physics and law enforcement, I'd be unstoppable."
User avatar
Shin Kenshiro
Mustachioed Pugilist
Posts: 830
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2003 10:31 pm

Post by Shin Kenshiro »


[quote="Neuro"]I believe people get what they ultimately search for. If you want justice, may you receive justice.



May the rest of us receive comfort and mercy.[/quote]


Without one, you cannot expect to have the others.

To know me is to fear me, to fear me is to be human
User avatar
jimmy corrigan
Posts: 4900
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 11:00 am
Location: 1313 mockingbird lane

Post by jimmy corrigan »

yo, controversy hounds:

i heard on npr this morning that there's a clause in prop 85 that allows for special circumstances for a minor not to be obligated to tell her parents about an abortion. she must either fall under two extenuating circumstances. the pregnant minor must either: a.) be pregnant as a result of rape or b.) fear abuse at home from her parents. in both cases the child protection agency comes into play and the teen is excused from the legislation.

i hope this sheds some new light on this issue or at the very least eases some of the tensions here. but something tells me not to hold my breath on this forum. i love you all.
User avatar
Shin Kenshiro
Mustachioed Pugilist
Posts: 830
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2003 10:31 pm

Post by Shin Kenshiro »


[quote="jimmy corrigan"]yo, controversy hounds:



i heard on npr this morning that there's a clause in prop 85 that allows for special circumstances for a minor not to be obligated to tell her parents about an abortion. she must either fall under two extenuating circumstances. the pregnant minor must either: a.) be pregnant as a result of rape or b.) fear abuse at home from her parents. in both cases the child protection agency comes into play and the teen is excused from the legislation.



i hope this sheds some new light on this issue or at the very least eases some of the tensions here. but something tells me not to hold my breath on this forum. i love you all.[/quote]


Interesting. So what if all the girl has to do is call rape and she's excused? The rape clause isn't a bad one so long as the girl has already reported the rape to the police....but if she's just claiming she was raped to hide from the parents then it's a completely different story. As for abuse from the parents...if we're talking "whipping with a phone cord" style heavy abuse, then sure.

To know me is to fear me, to fear me is to be human
User avatar
Neuro
Valorous Knight
Posts: 3560
Joined: Fri May 16, 2003 11:00 am
Location: Olivenhain
Contact:

Post by Neuro »


I've read that bit and don't really find that it gives me a lot of hope for various reasons. Ultimately, this seems like an issue I find terrible to legislate and think the discretion of the individuals involved really is sufficient. The option of referring oneself to CPS isn't really a great option.


[quote="jimmy corrigan"]yo, controversy hounds:



i heard on npr this morning that there's a clause in prop 85 that allows for special circumstances for a minor not to be obligated to tell her parents about an abortion. she must either fall under two extenuating circumstances. the pregnant minor must either: a.) be pregnant as a result of rape or b.) fear abuse at home from her parents. in both cases the child protection agency comes into play and the teen is excused from the legislation.



i hope this sheds some new light on this issue or at the very least eases some of the tensions here. but something tells me not to hold my breath on this forum. i love you all.[/quote]

"I need no mask to speak with you. Unlike my brother. I create my own personality. Personality is my medium."

--Neuromancer, William Gibson
User avatar
mordraine
Posts: 6642
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2003 3:00 am
Location: tecolote canyon

Post by mordraine »


[quote="Neuro"]I'veUltimately, this seems like an issue I find terrible to legislate and think the discretion of the individuals involved really is sufficient. [/quote]

This is the part that I don't agree with. Kids are gonna be kids, and will make horrible, stupid, rash decisions. They're minors. Lemme ask you something, what if the girl is 12 years old, and she gets pregnant and wants an abortion without telling her parents?



Besides, this sort of thing is already legislated. Doctors can't do any other procedure on my kid unless they notify me first. I fail to see, other than this whole "because parents will beat and kill their kids" argument, why abortion is any different.



Meanwhile...

[img]http://browndailysqueal.com/archives/Beating%20Dead%20Horse-thumb.gif[/img]

Hey man, I'm slinging volume and fat stacking benjies, you know what I mean? I can't be all about spelling and shit!
User avatar
Neuro
Valorous Knight
Posts: 3560
Joined: Fri May 16, 2003 11:00 am
Location: Olivenhain
Contact:

Post by Neuro »

I think if you don't know your 12 year old is having sex, there are WAY bigger problems than the 12 year old getting an abortion and think the 12 year old may have the bigger clue in this picture, as she's lining up the abortion.

The best possible scenario is for parents and children to sort this out amongst themselves. Failing that kind of scenario, give the 12 year old the abortion. If it's a risk between CPS and an under-the-radar abortion, kids'll go for the latter.
"I need no mask to speak with you. Unlike my brother. I create my own personality. Personality is my medium."

--Neuromancer, William Gibson
User avatar
mordraine
Posts: 6642
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2003 3:00 am
Location: tecolote canyon

Post by mordraine »


[quote="Neuro"]I think if you don't know your 12 year old is having sex, there are WAY bigger problems than the 12 year old getting an abortion and think the 12 year old may have the bigger clue in this picture, as she's lining up the abortion.[/quote]

Huh, kids not telling their parents stuff? Naw, that never happens.



Kids are remarkably clued in these days, and yet, they still make stupid, immature decisions. Cuz, well, they're kids.


[quote="Neuro"]The best possible scenario is for parents and children to sort this out amongst themselves.[/quote]

Exactly! That's what I'm saying! That's why the doctor should notify the parents, so they can get the chance to sort things out amongst themselves.



BTW, I'm not saying the kid can't have an abortion. If the parents okay it, then by all means, have the abortion.

Hey man, I'm slinging volume and fat stacking benjies, you know what I mean? I can't be all about spelling and shit!
User avatar
Neuro
Valorous Knight
Posts: 3560
Joined: Fri May 16, 2003 11:00 am
Location: Olivenhain
Contact:

Post by Neuro »


[quote="mordraine"]
BTW, I'm not saying the kid can't have an abortion. If the parents okay it, then by all means, have the abortion.[/quote]


And what if the parent isn't okay with it? What if mom's a fundie, for instance? Want the twelve year old to have the baby against her will?

"I need no mask to speak with you. Unlike my brother. I create my own personality. Personality is my medium."

--Neuromancer, William Gibson
User avatar
mordraine
Posts: 6642
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2003 3:00 am
Location: tecolote canyon

Post by mordraine »


[quote="Neuro"]And what if the parent isn't okay with it? What if mom's a fundie, for instance? Want the twelve year old to have the baby against her will?[/quote]

A minor is legally the parent's responsibility. Legally, that's the parent's call, IMO anyway.



I know we won't agree on this.

Hey man, I'm slinging volume and fat stacking benjies, you know what I mean? I can't be all about spelling and shit!
User avatar
Neuro
Valorous Knight
Posts: 3560
Joined: Fri May 16, 2003 11:00 am
Location: Olivenhain
Contact:

Post by Neuro »


[quote="mordraine"]A minor is legally the parent's responsibility. Legally, that's the parent's call, IMO anyway.



I know we won't agree on this.[/quote]


Legally, yes. What do you think is the ethical thing here?

"I need no mask to speak with you. Unlike my brother. I create my own personality. Personality is my medium."

--Neuromancer, William Gibson
User avatar
Shin Kenshiro
Mustachioed Pugilist
Posts: 830
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2003 10:31 pm

Post by Shin Kenshiro »


[quote="Neuro"]And what if the parent isn't okay with it? What if mom's a fundie, for instance? Want the twelve year old to have the baby against her will?[/quote]

It's the parents' decision. When the kid is 18, then it will be the new adult's decision. If the 12 year old is out having consensual sex, then tough shit if the parent is a fundamentalist. Unless that kid is going to physically harm the child and put the new mother's life in danger, then it's the parent's call.



Life is about choices, some are easy and some are not. If the child had sex willingly, then the child MUST be faced with the reality of life and its consequences. Catering to a stupid decision is NOT mercy or support. It is coddling and nurturing the mentality that whenever you do something your parents will not approve of you can still get out of it. The parent is not the villain here, it is the "poor helpless child......who just happened to be fucking around and got pregnant"



It doesn't matter if the kid is 10 or 17; if the child is out having consensual sex then the consequences MUST be faced. As long as the child is under the parents' legal obligation, then the parent (as long as the parent in question is not blatantly abusive) is the one who is to make this decision, not the minor.

To know me is to fear me, to fear me is to be human
User avatar
mordraine
Posts: 6642
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2003 3:00 am
Location: tecolote canyon

Post by mordraine »


[quote="Neuro"]Legally, yes. What do you think is the ethical thing here?[/quote]

Personally, speaking as a parent, I agree 100% with the law here (although the law is actually NOT that right now, which is what Prop 85 is about). I think a doctor should be ethically bound to tell a parent when a kid wants to have an abortion, just like any other procedure. I've said that many times in this thread.



Leaving the decision in the hands of a child and a bunch of strangers that know nothing about the family in question is not ethical, IMO.

Hey man, I'm slinging volume and fat stacking benjies, you know what I mean? I can't be all about spelling and shit!
User avatar
Neuro
Valorous Knight
Posts: 3560
Joined: Fri May 16, 2003 11:00 am
Location: Olivenhain
Contact:

Post by Neuro »


[quote="mordraine"]Personally, speaking as a parent, I agree 100% with the law here (although the law is actually NOT that right now, which is what Prop 85 is about). I think a doctor should be ethically bound to tell a parent when a kid wants to have an abortion, just like any other procedure. I've said that many times in this thread.



Leaving the decision in the hands of a child and a bunch of strangers that know nothing about the family in question is not ethical, IMO.[/quote]


No, I meant the situation at hand in that discussion: A child is young and pregnant. She wants an abortion. A parent is notified and refuses the abortion and forces the child to carry the baby to term against her will. Do you find that behavior ethical?

"I need no mask to speak with you. Unlike my brother. I create my own personality. Personality is my medium."

--Neuromancer, William Gibson
User avatar
mordraine
Posts: 6642
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2003 3:00 am
Location: tecolote canyon

Post by mordraine »


[quote="Neuro"]No, I meant the situation at hand in that discussion: A child is young and pregnant. She wants an abortion. A parent is notified and refuses the abortion and forces the child to carry the baby to term against her will. Do you find that behavior ethical?[/quote]

Mostly, it's none of my business. But if that's what the parents want then yes, I think it's ethical. The parents are responsible for their child. It's their call. I don't agree with the decision of the parents, and if I was friends with them, I'd council them against it, but I can't tell them not to do it. It's not my decision to make, or a doctor in an abortion clinic, or anyone else. Whether I think it's ethical or not makes no difference. It's the parents ethics that matter.

Hey man, I'm slinging volume and fat stacking benjies, you know what I mean? I can't be all about spelling and shit!
User avatar
Neuro
Valorous Knight
Posts: 3560
Joined: Fri May 16, 2003 11:00 am
Location: Olivenhain
Contact:

Post by Neuro »


[quote="mordraine"]It's the parents ethics that matter.[/quote]

What an interesting notion. What about parents who refuse treatment for their ill children?

"I need no mask to speak with you. Unlike my brother. I create my own personality. Personality is my medium."

--Neuromancer, William Gibson
User avatar
mordraine
Posts: 6642
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2003 3:00 am
Location: tecolote canyon

Post by mordraine »


[quote="Neuro"]What an interesting notion. What about parents who refuse treatment for their ill children?[/quote]

Now you're talking about putting children in danger, which is an entirely different matter. And there are already laws in place for that if I'm not mistaken.

Hey man, I'm slinging volume and fat stacking benjies, you know what I mean? I can't be all about spelling and shit!
User avatar
Neuro
Valorous Knight
Posts: 3560
Joined: Fri May 16, 2003 11:00 am
Location: Olivenhain
Contact:

Post by Neuro »


[quote="mordraine"]Now you're talking about putting children in danger, which is an entirely different matter. And there are already laws in place for that if I'm not mistaken.[/quote]

Of course, pregnancy isn't remotely dangerous.



I'd like to point out that it isn't a different matter. At issue is a parent's right to decide for their child what is best for the child in issues of medical nature. You have stated that it is the parents' ethics that matter, not the child's. You aren't willing to go so far as to say that this is always the case, however when ethical and cultural mores differ from your own.

"I need no mask to speak with you. Unlike my brother. I create my own personality. Personality is my medium."

--Neuromancer, William Gibson
User avatar
mordraine
Posts: 6642
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2003 3:00 am
Location: tecolote canyon

Post by mordraine »


[quote="Neuro"]Of course, pregnancy isn't remotely dangerous.



I'd like to point out that it isn't a different matter. At issue is a parent's right to decide for their child what is best for the child in issues of medical nature. You have stated that it is the parents' ethics that matter, not the child's. You aren't willing to go so far as to say that this is always the case, however when ethical and cultural mores differ from your own.[/quote]


All of my arguments have been consistent.



If a child is in danger, then all bets are off. To me, at least, it's a completely different matter. You can continue to believe it's not if you want, but it is to me. Ethics don't even enter into the picture. *Anyone's* cultural or ethical beliefs that put *anyone* in danger are usually against the law and I see nothing wrong with that.

Hey man, I'm slinging volume and fat stacking benjies, you know what I mean? I can't be all about spelling and shit!
User avatar
Neuro
Valorous Knight
Posts: 3560
Joined: Fri May 16, 2003 11:00 am
Location: Olivenhain
Contact:

Post by Neuro »


[quote="mordraine"]All of my arguments have been consistent.



If a child is in danger, then all bets are off. To me, at least, it's a completely different matter. You can continue to believe it's not if you want, but it is to me. Ethics don't even enter into the picture. *Anyone's* cultural or ethical beliefs that put *anyone* in danger are usually against the law and I see nothing wrong with that.[/quote]


So the parents' ethics are the most important thing until someone is in danger is what you're saying.



I submit that this proposition probably has the least effect on those households in which there is good communication between parents and children and in which things at home are generally good. These people are less likely to be pregnant teenagers and when some of them are, they are more likely to face the challenges as a family. This is not a case that requires legislation.



So in cases beyond that case, we have the generally larger population where things aren't great, but they're not terrible either and there's already a disconnect and the teenager is obviously already having problems or they wouldn't be knocked up and at this pretty pass. About two and a half thousand children are found to be abused in the United States a week. That's across the spectrum of age groups. Identifying those children isn't always easy and they don't self-identify. However terrible a parent may be, children are usually fairly attached to them. Others are already possibly familiar with the ins and outs of CPS and found little solace there, either, and sometimes way, way more problems. These are the kids who are most at risk from this kind of legislation. Some of them probably are in danger. Some few will be in even more danger.



Parents ethics are the most important thing until someone is in danger.

"I need no mask to speak with you. Unlike my brother. I create my own personality. Personality is my medium."

--Neuromancer, William Gibson
User avatar
mordraine
Posts: 6642
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2003 3:00 am
Location: tecolote canyon

Post by mordraine »

I would have to accept your argument to agree with you. I don't. I submit that it's not only the kids who are in bad households that keep things from their parents, or who make bad, immature decisions. Just read that article that Count Zero posted earlier. I submit that those parents were *good* parents.

I'm done now. My views on parenthood won't change. You're just going around in circles and arguing stuff that's already been argued about 10 times.
Hey man, I'm slinging volume and fat stacking benjies, you know what I mean? I can't be all about spelling and shit!
User avatar
Neuro
Valorous Knight
Posts: 3560
Joined: Fri May 16, 2003 11:00 am
Location: Olivenhain
Contact:

Post by Neuro »

I think it'd do more good to demonstrate that those children aren't more at risk because of prop 85 and then demonstrate that those other kids may be at further risk because of the lack of prop 85.

I have a proposition. Swap sides of the argument for a while.
"I need no mask to speak with you. Unlike my brother. I create my own personality. Personality is my medium."

--Neuromancer, William Gibson
User avatar
mordraine
Posts: 6642
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2003 3:00 am
Location: tecolote canyon

Post by mordraine »


[quote="Neuro"]I have a proposition. Swap sides of the argument for a while.[/quote]

I can't wear another hat besides my parent hat. I have no interest in doing that. In fact, I'm rapidly losing interest in this subject as a whole. It's played out. I'd much rather discuss [i]Heroes[/i].

Hey man, I'm slinging volume and fat stacking benjies, you know what I mean? I can't be all about spelling and shit!
User avatar
Neuro
Valorous Knight
Posts: 3560
Joined: Fri May 16, 2003 11:00 am
Location: Olivenhain
Contact:

Post by Neuro »


[quote="mordraine"]I can't wear another hat besides my parent hat. I have no interest in doing that. In fact, I'm rapidly losing interest in this subject as a whole. It's played out. I'd much rather discuss [i]Heroes[/i].[/quote]

I think it's good for people to think outside their hats.

"I need no mask to speak with you. Unlike my brother. I create my own personality. Personality is my medium."

--Neuromancer, William Gibson
User avatar
mordraine
Posts: 6642
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2003 3:00 am
Location: tecolote canyon

Post by mordraine »

a) I'd have to still be interested.

b) I don't see anything to gain from it. It's not like I'm not empathetic. It just won't change my personal view on being a parent.
Hey man, I'm slinging volume and fat stacking benjies, you know what I mean? I can't be all about spelling and shit!
User avatar
Neuro
Valorous Knight
Posts: 3560
Joined: Fri May 16, 2003 11:00 am
Location: Olivenhain
Contact:

Post by Neuro »


[quote="mordraine"]a) I'd have to still be interested.



b) I don't see anything to gain from it. It's not like I'm not empathetic. It just won't change my personal view on being a parent.[/quote]




Certainly drop it if you're bored, but as a general note on the debate forum I'd like to put forth a note about general philosophy here, because I read something in a thread involving a couple of forum members recently that disturbed me.



I don't think you should always strictly debate your own points and I'm not always arguing exactly what I believe. Debate is always and only an exercise for more thinking and better logic. It is not for emotion or for self-advocacy. It's an exercise in rhetoric. If you debate only from under your own hat, you never think about more that you would come up with in your own framework of thought and belief. Clear thought is the function of debate, not agreement.

"I need no mask to speak with you. Unlike my brother. I create my own personality. Personality is my medium."

--Neuromancer, William Gibson
User avatar
anika_bird
One-Armed Skeleton
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:32 am
Location: San Diego State area
Contact:

Post by anika_bird »

Drew, I am pro-choice and anti-abortion too. So you're not the only one!
User avatar
mrlost
Mustachioed Pugilist
Posts: 827
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 12:00 pm
Location: Imperial Beach

Post by mrlost »


[quote="Neuro"]
I don't think you should always strictly debate your own points and I'm not always arguing exactly what I believe. Debate is always and only an exercise for more thinking and better logic. It is not for emotion or for self-advocacy. It's an exercise in rhetoric. If you debate only from under your own hat, you never think about more that you would come up with in your own framework of thought and belief. Clear thought is the function of debate, not agreement.[/quote]


Excellent idea!

Post Reply