WoD system rulebook will be SEPARATE!

[mordraine]

Just read this over at RPGnet:

The World of Darkness Rulebook (WW55000) and Vampire: The Requiem (WW25000)will be released on 21 August 2004.
Werewolf the Forsaken will be released in November 2004. Mage: The Awakening will be released in March 2005.
The Rulebook will be priced at $19.99. Vampire will be priced at $34.99.
Dice pools will still be used.
"...None of the continuity or assumptions from the 1991-2003 material carry over."
"A free 32-page introductory game [will be] sent through distribution and inserted into Dragon...."
The Rulebook will contain mortal character creation, and general combat rules. The Vampire book will give details on "embracing" mortal characters, as well as background and disiplines. Future "monster" books will follow a similar format.

[cczernia]

And that all sounds good except:

"...None of the continuity or assumptions from the 1991-2003 material carry over."


Still can't stand this. I can just picture it.

"So, which Vampire game do you want to play. The one with 13 clans or the one with 7 and the Tremere are badguys. They are both the same game except in one you get to play the Tremere."

Friiken dumb!

[BreakfastOfChampions]

I like the idea they give core rules at 20 bones. Very doable.

[mordraine]

My understanding is that the clans will be completely different. Eh... who knows? Might not even be called "clans"??

[Gotetsu]

This is kinda cool. I like the ST system, and this almost amounts to an SRD, without the benfits of being able to use it in your own published work.

Of course, that COULD be next...

As a WoD neophyte, I'm not bothered by them not using the history of the previous version. But I can understand why it would suck for someone who is into it.

It'd be like WotC publishing Forgotten Realms 2.0, where none of the previous stuff from novels and gaming suppliments counts. That would kind of tick me off.

[cczernia]

My understanding is that the clans will be completely different. Eh... who knows? Might not even be called "clans"??

See, you can change the names and mix and match the clans all you want; it is still going to be the same game. The difference is going to be minor details. If they were doing something other than vamps, mages and werewolves or removing splats all together than I could see it but we are getting the same game with a new set of clothes. The same but different.

[BreakfastOfChampions]

[quote:b0d49753b5="mordraine"]My understanding is that the clans will be completely different. Eh... who knows? Might not even be called "clans"??

See, you can change the names and mix and match the clans all you want; it is still going to be the same game. The difference is going to be minor details. If they were doing something other than vamps, mages and werewolves or removing splats all together than I could see it but we are getting the same game with a new set of clothes. The same but different.[/quote:b0d49753b5]

You mean all those goth kids are gonna have to wear something other than black?

[cczernia]

[quote:4320b0d664="cczernia"][quote:4320b0d664="mordraine"]My understanding is that the clans will be completely different. Eh... who knows? Might not even be called "clans"??

See, you can change the names and mix and match the clans all you want; it is still going to be the same game. The difference is going to be minor details. If they were doing something other than vamps, mages and werewolves or removing splats all together than I could see it but we are getting the same game with a new set of clothes. The same but different.[/quote:4320b0d664]

You mean all those goth kids are gonna have to wear something other than black?[/quote:4320b0d664]

Nope, still black, just slightly different pattern.

[BreakfastOfChampions]

Black paisleys!

[Gotetsu]

I wonder if they will do a "Street Fighter" book? That would rock! :D

[cczernia]

I wonder if they will do a "Street Fighter" book? That would rock! :D

You mean a "Street Fighter II edition" :D

[Lowly Uhlan]

All of you closet goths will have to go buy all the new Vampire stuff! HAH!

[smartmonkey]

Meh, I'm interested in seeing what they do with it. Vampire had ended up a very politically centered game (i.e, camarilla v. camarilla, clan v. clan, prince v. prince, etc...) and I'd like to see something a bit more along the lines of a traditional vampire story... same goes for werewolf, and the new mage.

So they're done with the WoD, BFD. It jumped the shark when Hunter: The Reckonings metaplot started up. If not before.

[cczernia]

Meh, I'm interested in seeing what they do with it. Vampire had ended up a very politically centered game (i.e, camarilla v. camarilla, clan v. clan, prince v. prince, etc...) and I'd like to see something a bit more along the lines of a traditional vampire story... same goes for werewolf, and the new mage.

So they're done with the WoD, BFD. It jumped the shark when Hunter: The Reckonings metaplot started up. If not before.

True. Vampire was a very political game.... but it was probably the best political game out there.

1st edition focused on the being a vampire
2nd edition focused on vamp politics
3rd edition managed to combine the two

I don't see the new vampire game doing anything different unless it is vampires in space or vampires crawling through a dungeon with a vampire priest providing cure aggrevated wound. I think the new vampire is going to be just like the old vampire only new rules and different names for splats. But I guess I'll just have to wait and see.

[smartmonkey]

But I guess I'll just have to wait and see. Yep. I'm just hoping WW won't dissapoint.

[BlanchPrez]

I don't see the new vampire game doing anything different unless it is vampires in space or vampires crawling through a dungeon with a vampire priest providing cure aggrevated wound. I think the new vampire is going to be just like the old vampire only new rules and different names for splats. But I guess I'll just have to wait and see.

Why is this bad? A new paint of coat is not always a bad thing. D&D 3.0 was still D&D, even though it had different rules and some different names for the classes, but it turned out to be nothing but a good thing. Besides, the WoD setting was getting old, so a new setting might be just the ticket.

Chris

[cczernia]

[quote:f193dd75c3="cczernia"]I don't see the new vampire game doing anything different unless it is vampires in space or vampires crawling through a dungeon with a vampire priest providing cure aggrevated wound. I think the new vampire is going to be just like the old vampire only new rules and different names for splats. But I guess I'll just have to wait and see.

Why is this bad? A new paint of coat is not always a bad thing. D&D 3.0 was still D&D, even though it had different rules and some different names for the classes, but it turned out to be nothing but a good thing. Besides, the WoD setting was getting old, so a new setting might be just the ticket.

Chris[/quote:f193dd75c3]

This is not like D&D3 as D&D is set of rules. So all they did was change the rules. This is more the equivalent to them changing D&D and than saying the Drow rule all of Faerun because Lolth never existed.

I don't mind a new revision, edition or rules change. I wouldn't even mind them cleaning up the old WoD. However, I don't like what they are doing which is a total revision of the WoD. The could have cleaned up the rules and tossed out the junk with World of Darkness 4.0. Get rid of the mummies, Hunters, Demons, bloodlines, abominations, metaplot and keep the core stuff everyone liked.

I could even handle a whole new look a feel to the WoD such as no splats, short histories ex ex. However, we've already been told that there will be splats in vampire. So... exactly how is this different from the old game.???

But I guess I'll just have to wait and see.

[smartmonkey]

It's the same basic premises (i.e, vampires suck blood and daylight sucks for them, werewolves turn into big beasties that scare the crap out of people, mages can bend reality), but it'll be a new take on all three. I'm guessing werewolves will be more like the classice werewolf - little control over shifting, eating people at random, etc... and the same goes for vampire. The only one I'm really leery of is Mage. Mage had a interesting system, and the Metaplot wasn't -nearly- as bad as Werewolf or, say, Hunter.

[cczernia]

The only one I'm really leery of is Mage. Mage had a interesting system, and the Metaplot wasn't -nearly- as bad as Werewolf or, say, Hunter.

Well, I'm not that familiar with Hunter (didn't like the game) but Mage's metaplot has the most severe change from 2nd edition to Revised. The setting practically up-rooted itself so you had to play Jesse Heinig's prefered style of play (street level Mage as presented in Destiny's Price, Orphan's Survival Guide, and Bitter Road). I loved the revised rules for Mage but hated the revised metaplot driven setting. Avatar storm indeed!

[smartmonkey]

Avatar storm indeed!

w0rd yo. Or something.

I got into mage right after revised came out, though I had flipped through the corebook a few times before, and even read one of the better novelizations (damned if I can remember the name...) and my avatar more or less sums up what I thought of the new metaplot stuff.

I -hate- overbearing metaplots. Seriously. I don't mind it when it's not constantly advancing (i.e, to have any idea what the current state of the setting is, but the new 25.00 sourcebook) but when you start changing the setting in large sweeps (like, say, when the Ravnos went kaboom), it starts to piss me off. WW has a nasty tendency to do this. Exalted and the Aeon Trinity games have more or less avoided it, but I dread the day that Exalted 2e comes out... :-P

[Gotetsu]

Actually, Hunter is my second favorite WoD game, next to Werewolf. But then again, I paid 0% attention to any kind of metaplot (in any of the games). I just liked the idea of normal people fighting back against the monsters who have been using them as food/breeding stock/etc... for eons.

So, I probably won't be very effected by the reboot of the WoD.

[smartmonkey]

Hunter was cool as a system. It's metaplot kinda... sucked. I usually don't bitch about the art in RPG's, but Hunter was a game about everyday, semi-normal people fighting against the supernatural, and frequently dying or going insane. And whats the art look like?

Rambo v. Vampires!

Stupid.

[mordraine]

Hunter was probably one of the most misunderstood games on WoD. Maybe even more than Wraith. Stuff that didn't help: a) the fact that there was a previous supplement called Hunter: The Hunted, which was hugely popular. b) that butt-ugly cover. c) the Buffy/Rambo artwork, cuz that just wasn't the mood of the game. d) "normal" humans that had supernatural powers.

I thought it was damn cool.

[Gotetsu]

I like the artwork in the Hunter books. But then again, look at the characters I always play. :D

And although the cover was a bit much, it did a good job distinguishing itself from other WoD books. It's a game of vengence and violence. What better motif for that than flame?

[cczernia]

Hunter was probably one of the most misunderstood games on WoD. Maybe even more than Wraith. Stuff that didn't help: a) the fact that there was a previous supplement called Hunter: The Hunted, which was hugely popular. b) that butt-ugly cover. c) the Buffy/Rambo artwork, cuz that just wasn't the mood of the game. d) "normal" humans that had supernatural powers.

I thought it was damn cool.

Don't forget the video games which is basically "Gauntlet" set in the WoD. My #1 beef with Hunter:tR was d) "normal" humans that had supernatural powers. I was all for normals in the WoD as presented in "Hunters Hunted, Project Twilight, The Inquisition." However, nothing about Hunter seemed to present normal humans. You could make the arguement that they were once normal and had supernatural things force them into unnormal setting. But you can say that for all the WoD people. The only other difference was the Imbued spent way to much time on forums and they all used their handles. I just don't want to be called "cczernia" in public. :D

There was one cool element to Hunter and that was all Imbued were essentially new to their abilities and identity meaning there wasn't a 10000 year old Tradition, clan, tribe, guild to help you along the way. There was only the internet and that was good enough for me.

[Gotetsu]

Ok, I busted out my Hunter book last night and flipped through it. Honestly, I didn't see a whole lot of "Rambo" pictures. The closest thing is that one of the artist's style lends itself well to "buff" characters, so that may be what was meant. But I love his style.

Most of the rest of the artwork is very scribble and heavily inked. And the characters all look like skinny, angry Brujah-wannabes who are pissed because they didn't get embraced.

I mean, there were a lot of heavily armed people, but hell, who wouldn't be heavily armed when hunting vampires and werewolves and the like?

Of course, there's the old man with a cane skewering the werewolf with a spoon. And the pregnant chick blasting a zombie's head open with spare change and paperclips. Good times. :)

[cczernia]

White Wolf art has always been a mixed bag. I do remember the art in Hunter:TR being good. The worst was Lief Jones doing splat pictures in Mage. It drove me mad as all the splats looked looked goofy.

Another odd thing about Hunter was the zombies. Zombies never existed in the WoD previous to Hunter (unless you cout Risen but they are rarer than vamps and mages) The 6th great Maelstorm from Wraith happens kicking all the souls out or sucking them into oblivion. Supposedly, these souls inhabit bodies and are now zombies. My problem was that no one but the Imbued could see them???? And, these once inteilligent Wraiths are now mindless zombies who look like fry cooks and stockbrokers. I just couldn't suspend disbelief to grasp all this.

[Gotetsu]

Yeah, I didn't know all of that Zombie lore, but I did know that "zombies" were something "new" to Hunter.

When I first bought the book, I kind of got the feeling that it took place in a different world then the normal WoD. It just seemed that things were laid out differently as far as the lore and background of the various monsters.

Of course, there is the possibility that the Zombies were created to give characters something more to fight than Vampires and Werewolves, who would be very hard to kill for novice characters.

All in all, it could have been presented better, but I still like the idea of the game. And I think if taken as a seperate game from the Vampire and Werewolf games, it probably makes more sense.

[cczernia]

All in all, it could have been presented better, but I still like the idea of the game. And I think if taken as a seperate game from the Vampire and Werewolf games, it probably makes more sense.

This is truer than you know. One of the problems with the WoD is that each game was suppose to be a seperate individual game. They never really thought out how to connect the game and as soon as crossover whackiness began things started to fall apart. The "Time of Judgement" books go back to this idea as each game belongs to itself and they don't have any crossover material in them.

So, Hunter as a game about average people killing zombies is pretty cool, but the second you try and figure out its place in the WoD it becomes relatively stupid. It also becomes a problem as one thing that seperated the game was lack of interest of the supernaturals toward other supernaturals. So, vampires didn't really care about mages, and mages didn't care about werewolves ex ex (of course there was the occasional exception, "The Red Sign"). The Imbued cared about them all which created a problem of how to introduce them to a game if you wanted to stick to canon WoD.

[Lowly Uhlan]

Out of all the WoD games, Hunter sounded like the best one to me. Especially after seeing Blade. But most of the WoD players say it's not too good.

[cczernia]

Out of all the WoD games, Hunter sounded like the best one to me. Especially after seeing Blade. But most of the WoD players say it's not too good.

Hunter:tR never really felt like Blade. Vampire (WoD) has always had humans hunting the supernatural. The Inquisition was introduced in V:tM 1st edition. In revised V:tM they did come up with the dampir but they were no were near as powerful as Blade.

To focus of H:tR was normal people against the supernatural. So, all Hunter/Imbued start off with average lower stats than supernaturals and are given a few powerz. The powerz range to ass kicking stuff to protection from supernatural powerz. The problem comes in with the theme of the game. If the Imbued have special powerz than are they still normal. If not than how can this be a came about normal people against the supernatural.

I've run normal humans in the WoD a few dozen times http://www.czernopkins.org/Hunters/index.shtml and normals do not need special powerz to bring down supernatural being. A bullet can kill a mage or changeling and Werewolves and Vampires have enough weaknesses that a smart Hunter can take them down.

BTW - A game that would do Blade really well would be Buffy/Angel Unisystem.

[mordraine]

Out of all the WoD games, Hunter sounded like the best one to me. Especially after seeing Blade. But most of the WoD players say it's not too good.

I still think it's a cool game. Nothing at all like Blade, but still a cool game.

I'm not sure what Chris is talking about with the "cross-over wackiness", cuz as far as I know WW strove to keep that out of their games. There was a hint... a whiff... of crossover in every game even back to 2nd and 1st editions. But WW always made it pretty clear that any crossover you do has to be in context. In other words, you can play Hunter and have vamps or wraiths in your game, but the vamps and wraiths are Hunter vamps and wraiths, not vamps from Vampire or wraiths from Wraith. WW never condoned out-and-out cross-over between games. Each game had its own cosmology. Trying to apply Wraith rules to ghosts or zombies encountered in Hunter isn't what Hunter is all about.

To focus of H:tR was normal people against the supernatural.

See, now this is not true. The focus of Hunter was not, I repeat, NOT normal people. NO. NO. The focus and concept of the game was to take your average joe and imbue him with special powers that allow him to suddenly become aware of the horrible supernatural world around him and fight it - the zombies and vampires and monsters that were constantly preying on humanity while humanity slept through it all. The Hunters became IMBUED. The focus of the game was IMBUED humans. The point was that they WEREN'T normal!! How do these newly imbued handle their newfound knowledge? How do they handle their newfound abilities to fight these monsters? THAT'S what the game's all about.

Forget about any other WoD game and just look at it in the context of Hunter. It's a damn cool concept.

[cczernia]

I'm not sure what Chris is talking about with the "cross-over wackiness", cuz as far as I know WW strove to keep that out of their games.

The focus of Hunter was not, I repeat, NOT normal people. NO. NO. The focus and concept of the game was to take your average joe and imbue him with special powers that allow him to suddenly become aware of the horrible supernatural world around him and fight it - the zombies and vampires and monsters that were constantly preying on humanity while humanity slept through it all. The Hunters became IMBUED. The focus of the game was IMBUED humans. The point was that they WEREN'T normal!! How do these newly imbued handle their newfound knowledge? How do they handle their newfound abilities to fight these monsters? THAT'S what the game's all about.

First, the cross over whackiness has always been sprinkled in. V:tM 1st edition has stuff on lupines and mages but overall the games were meant to be serperate which they did until... Yes, the inevitable cross over munchkin himself: Sam Haight!!!! as seen in a number of different books. Cross-over whackiness has appeared a few other times including the Tremere/Order of Hermes war. One of the worst was a Mage splat book (I think it was Void Engineers) where a representative from different supernaturals all sat around a camp fire and had a world of darkness pow wow.

As for Hunter. You're right. Hunter was not about humans/mortals. It was about taking the power back from the supernatural. But again the themes get confused when the ones who are taking the power back for humanity aren't human themselves. You could argue they were once human but all the supernaturals were once human.

On a side note. Did Hunter's metaplot ever reveal who was doing the imbueing???

[Cthulhu]

My whole problem with the cross overs was that the worldviews were incompatible. Werewolf had a "Mother Earth" hippie type mysticism. Vampire and Demon had a very biblical worldview. Mages view of the universe was whatever the mages chose it to be. I'm not sure what Wraith was trying to do, but it wasn't any of the previous 3. As GM I was happy playing any of them, but whichever I played someone just HAD to be the werewolf in Vampire of the redcap in Werewolf, etc. :roll: If they're using one rulebook for the whole thing, I'm gonna have these problems again. Consumer whore that I am, I'll still buy it.

[cczernia]

My whole problem with the cross overs was that the worldviews were incompatible. Werewolf had a "Mother Earth" hippie type mysticism. Vampire and Demon had a very biblical worldview. Mages view of the universe was whatever the mages chose it to be. I'm not sure what Wraith was trying to do, but it wasn't any of the previous 3. As GM I was happy playing any of them, but whichever I played someone just HAD to be the werewolf in Vampire of the redcap in Werewolf, etc. :roll: If they're using one rulebook for the whole thing, I'm gonna have these problems again. Consumer whore that I am, I'll still buy it.

Totally agree. I never allowed players to play outside of the supernatural game we were playing even if I was using an opposing supernatural from another game. The only exception was my own Hunters (troupe style mortals game) which was a lot like x-files with the monster of the week. I sure the new WoD will try and fix the cosmology issues so crossovers will be easier.

[mordraine]

On a side note. Did Hunter's metaplot ever reveal who was doing the imbueing???

I dunno. I think so, but I never bought any other book besides the core. I haven't made it to the Hunter chapter in the ToJ book either. Probably has something there on that.

[mordraine]

If they're using one rulebook for the whole thing, I'm gonna have these problems again. Consumer whore that I am, I'll still buy it.

I'm thinking that they'll tailor the new WoD after how Exalted is built. Exalted provides a cosmology where Solars and Lunars and Abyssals and Sidereals and whatever the hell else exalted types they come up with can all live and maybe even work together in the same world and there's no conflict of rules or cosmology.

At least, I'm HOPING that's what WoD 2.0 will be.