MInatures Are they good or do they take away from PGS?

[Eorin Silverleaf]

What I am saying is do the Minatures take away from the pencil and paper rpg's. I mean after you spend SO much money on them and the dungeons and countless other things you need. I have NEVER found any that fit with my characters. That and I do not want any company to tell me on how my characters look. I am not dissing them, no not at all. I just think that they take away from the true paper rpg's. If you want to use them use the mech minatures or warhammer. They should not be for running through dungeons. I personaly like to use a dry erase board for the battles. It is so easy to use and so much cheaper.


Happy Hunting
Eorin

"What's the matter with this thing? What's all that churning and bubbling? You call that a radar screen?" No, Sir,we call it....Mr. Coffee" Space Balls

[Wintermute]

You should state your opinion more firmly if you're going to have an agree/disagree poll. I like minis. I enjoy painting them, I enjoy looking over others that people have picked out/painted, and I think they do serve a purpose in combat (keeps anybody from being confused as to where the others are).

[Eorin Silverleaf]

Let me try this again. I hate them in dnd and other platforms like it.

[plaidrhino]

I too am in favor of using minis. It can bring visualization to a whole new level and does cut down on the chance of confusion when it comes to the current layout. In addition, they only get as expensive as you let them. Often times, I bring additional minis to a game so that others may use them as they don't have any.

[Skyman]

[quote="Wintermute"]You should state your opinion more firmly if you're going to have an agree/disagree poll. I like minis. I enjoy painting them, I enjoy looking over others that people have picked out/painted, and I think they do serve a purpose in combat (keeps anybody from being confused as to where the others are).[/quote]

Or more clearly. What am I agreeing or disagreeing too?

[BreakfastOfChampions]

I think minis are cool to look at. I rarely use them in games.

[Storyteller13]

I use miniatures in each of my games. Ever since WotC came out with the plastic ones I've been an avid collector. See, the thing about miniatures is that yeah, they represent your character, but since they are just a representation, they don't need to be exact. Before I started collecting them, I was using dice to represent characters and NPCs. There have been many times where combat positions would have been unclear without the miniatures helping.

Just my 2cp worth. 8)

[smartmonkey]

I prefer using some kind of battlemat/minis for any game I play in. I really don't give a shit if the mini fits my character - hell, I used a beer cap half the time - as long as I can diffrentiate between my PC and everyone else, I'm cool.

I find that games that -don't- use minis tend to get muddled once combat starts. It gets a bit hard to remember where 6 PC's are standing in relation to the say, 20+ mooks.

[Count Zero]

I find miniatures tend to harm my ability to role-play. I do miniature games also, so when I put out miniatures I stop visualizing the combat and start looking at the ways in which to exploit the system to take the most advantage of it.

The only instance where I like them is Heavy Gear and other silhouette games. Since the rules for minis are so specific, it makes it much easier.

Jonathan

[cczernia]

Depends on the game. For fast and loose combat I think they get in the way. For realistic or gameist combat they are very helpful. If your biggest concern is how the mini looks I think your missing the point of minis. Dice or counters can easily take their place.

[opwunder]

Back in the dark ages, I used to premake all of the rooms/countryside on large square graph paper and we would use minitures. After a couple of years, I discovered that the game rolled along a lot faster without them and people concentrated more on their character then on their miniture...and it took one hell-of-a lot less time to create the adventure. I still have a ton of minitures but they just sit in a box in the back of my closet.

[BreakfastOfChampions]

Blow-up dolls: Good for an RPG or Not?

[ ] Yes
[ ] No
[ ] I'm a little...busy right now.

[opwunder]

[quote="BreakfastOfChampions"]Blow-up dolls: Good for an RPG or Not?



[ ] Yes

[ ] No

[ ] I'm a little...busy right now.[/quote]

You're soooo bad! :lolup:

[Neuro]

I think they serve to remove ambiguity from combat. That's very important, since I believe that combat, no matter how petty, should always have a chance of killing the hell outta the participants. That's what combat's good for. Considering that people get rather particular about having their characters offed, it's good to remove as much ambiguity as possible, so that everyone can see and agree about cover, los, range, etc. It takes the burden off of the GM and places it squarely on the player as to why they got their character shot, stabbed, whatevered.

[opwunder]

[quote="Neuro"]I think they serve to remove ambiguity from combat. That's very important, since I believe that combat, no matter how petty, should always have a chance of killing the hell outta the participants. That's what combat's good for. Considering that people get rather particular about having their characters offed, it's good to remove as much ambiguity as possible, so that everyone can see and agree about cover, los, range, etc. It takes the burden off of the GM and places it squarely on the player as to why they got their character shot, stabbed, whatevered.[/quote]

I don't know...If I'm not descibing things well enough and the dice rolls are obvious enough then either I blew my job as the GM or sombody just wasn't paying attention. No pain, no gain and iffen you ain't willin' to lose it, don't use it! :nono:

[BreakfastOfChampions]

[quote="Neuro"]I think they serve to remove ambiguity from combat. That's very important, since I believe that combat, no matter how petty, should always have a chance of killing the hell outta the participants. That's what combat's good for. [/quote]

Agreed. But I'm not sure if its a 'pro' or a 'con'. Unless you're a fantastic general or have some sort of super sense, I think the fog of war thing is something vastly missing in most rpg combat.



"What the hell is going on?"

"You don't know"



Because it would seem in many circumstances, the combatants might not know what all is going on.

[Jake]

[quote="BreakfastOfChampions"]Because it would seem in many circumstances, the combatants might not know what all is going on.[/quote]
I never thought of that. It is a little lame that everyone always knows where everyone else is at all times.

[Eorin Silverleaf]

I want to thank every one for putting in their 2 cents in.

Happy Hunting
Eorin

[Skyman]

[quote="Jake"][quote:0d3dc73142="BreakfastOfChampions"]Because it would seem in many circumstances, the combatants might not know what all is going on.[/quote]
I never thought of that. It is a little lame that everyone always knows where everyone else is at all times.[/quote:0d3dc73142]



I guess that is the difference of Tactics and Strategy. If my definitions of those words are correct. In the fog of war you have tactics but before you enter the fog you have strategy. Minitures to me reflects the strategy with given assumptions about conditions as constants and controlled variables. Tactics is the decisions made with partial information under true duress about factors that are truely nonlinear...I think it's late and I'm rambling. Sorry.

[BreakfastOfChampions]

[quote="Jake"][quote:9eb5ab22db="BreakfastOfChampions"]Because it would seem in many circumstances, the combatants might not know what all is going on.[/quote]
I never thought of that. It is a little lame that everyone always knows where everyone else is at all times.[/quote:9eb5ab22db]



Unless you happen to be Prince Benedict of Amber, whose warfare talents are so insanely high he can peer through the fog of war.



So from a Simulationist perspective, figs ruin the idea of not having a thorough tactical understanding of the world around you. Hell, a battle map even gives distances, so that's not much of a mystery either.



From a Gamist perspective, the GM needs to be careful. Its no fun to be utterly confused all the time *and* if the players suffer from Fog of War, so should the beasties. However, if the players are the aggressors, they kind of shoulder that burden.



However, I ran a game where the hero was a sniper, watching the mouth of a cave. Something came out, and our hero pegged the guy in the back with a handy crossbow bolt.



The poor goblin, not knowing what just hit him, ran in a direction, any direction, which gave our hero time enough to reload, and plug the poor bastard again.



This was run merely to give an example of what combat in the system was like. The player had a great time. The goblin did have some complaints, but I told him the hero was acting in character, and he couldn't win them all.

[Roenoak]

I think that they are good because it gives people a visual of where things are. That can make it better to play out big battles too.

[Cthulhu]

I like 'em. What I noticed when I used miniatures was that combat got a lot harder(as in more dangerous). You don't always realize when a player can't get at an enemy, who's getting attacked from behind, who and what will be involved in an area attack. It's a level or realism thats very hard to do narratively.

I suppose a good compromise would be for the GM to sketch it out on graph paper behind the screen. That gives the GM a good feel of things while keeping the players "fogged" to any degree the GM wants. I've never done this, it may slow the GM down too much.

[Kuld]

Well, for one, you spend enough time creating a character to begin with, at least for 2E, just to have him die early on. I would probably be more upset if I spent the time to paint a mini for 'em. I have had well established characters not make it through a tough battle, It happens, and a few that i retire in pursuit of something new. Now those chars deserve a mini.
-Mark

[Neuro]

[quote="BreakfastOfChampions"][quote:c0844967cd="Neuro"]I think they serve to remove ambiguity from combat. That's very important, since I believe that combat, no matter how petty, should always have a chance of killing the hell outta the participants. That's what combat's good for. [/quote]

Agreed. But I'm not sure if its a 'pro' or a 'con'. Unless you're a fantastic general or have some sort of super sense, I think the fog of war thing is something vastly missing in most rpg combat.



"What the hell is going on?"

"You don't know"



Because it would seem in many circumstances, the combatants might not know what all is going on.[/quote:c0844967cd]



I think the fog of war is more applicable in larger scale combats. If it's you and your best buddies shooting up the bar, you're going to largely have an idea of where things are because you can see them. You might lose track of people in the confusion, but you can usually find them again. Without the map and miniatures, you can't ensure that everyone has the same data, even if they -would- have that data. Visualisation varies from player to player and for issues like LOS and cover, I don't like for things to be less than concrete.

[BreakfastOfChampions]

[quote="Neuro"][quote:af76ff15a6="BreakfastOfChampions"][quote:af76ff15a6="Neuro"]I think they serve to remove ambiguity from combat. That's very important, since I believe that combat, no matter how petty, should always have a chance of killing the hell outta the participants. That's what combat's good for. [/quote]

Agreed. But I'm not sure if its a 'pro' or a 'con'. Unless you're a fantastic general or have some sort of super sense, I think the fog of war thing is something vastly missing in most rpg combat.



"What the hell is going on?"

"You don't know"



Because it would seem in many circumstances, the combatants might not know what all is going on.[/quote:af76ff15a6]



I think the fog of war is more applicable in larger scale combats. If it's you and your best buddies shooting up the bar, you're going to largely have an idea of where things are because you can see them. You might lose track of people in the confusion, but you can usually find them again. Without the map and miniatures, you can't ensure that everyone has the same data, even if they -would- have that data. Visualisation varies from player to player and for issues like LOS and cover, I don't like for things to be less than concrete.[/quote:af76ff15a6]



Sort of agree, though I can see when the greasy, stinky stuff goes down, any group larger than 3 is going to have trouble dealing with more than one hostile. Heck, even one hostile, its kind of hard to figure out what happened, especilaly not trained.



But, as I said, reality doesn't always make good gaming. Well, except for my reality.

[Neuro]

Well, as for trained and untrained, it's important to remember that the characters may be better suited for combat that we, the players. That becomes a roleplay issue. Is it more appropriate for your character to take this moment to feel confused and climb a tree?

[BreakfastOfChampions]

[quote="Neuro"]Well, as for trained and untrained, it's important to remember that the characters may be better suited for combat that we, the players. That becomes a roleplay issue. Is it more appropriate for your character to take this moment to feel confused and climb a tree?[/quote]

Agreed, but mostly I think most players look at it as a binary skill. "I either completely understand the tatical situation around me or I don't."



I think this is a false assumption. Sure, the character may be trained, but that doesn't mean they know that joe is within 3 range bands. He may or may not, but I personally feel that games err on too much information in combat, not less.

[opwunder]

[quote="BreakfastOfChampions"][quote:94b0726f3b="Neuro"]Well, as for trained and untrained, it's important to remember that the characters may be better suited for combat that we, the players. That becomes a roleplay issue. Is it more appropriate for your character to take this moment to feel confused and climb a tree?[/quote]

Agreed, but mostly I think most players look at it as a binary skill. "I either completely understand the tatical situation around me or I don't."



I think this is a false assumption. Sure, the character may be trained, but that doesn't mean they know that joe is within 3 range bands. He may or may not, but I personally feel that games err on too much information in combat, not less.[/quote:94b0726f3b]



Here here!

[BreakfastOfChampions]

[quote="opwunder"][quote:6a803536cc="BreakfastOfChampions"][quote:6a803536cc="Neuro"]Well, as for trained and untrained, it's important to remember that the characters may be better suited for combat that we, the players. That becomes a roleplay issue. Is it more appropriate for your character to take this moment to feel confused and climb a tree?[/quote]

Agreed, but mostly I think most players look at it as a binary skill. "I either completely understand the tatical situation around me or I don't."



I think this is a false assumption. Sure, the character may be trained, but that doesn't mean they know that joe is within 3 range bands. He may or may not, but I personally feel that games err on too much information in combat, not less.[/quote:6a803536cc]



Here here![/quote:6a803536cc]



I love playing devils advocate for myself. Mind you, even with a map, the GM screaming at the top of his lungs, and that *thing* in the giant bunny suit that screams at me in Yiddish "Shoot him in the HEAD, you FOOL" I still get confused, and I bet, many players do too.

[Neuro]

Bunny suits. We didn't know Donnie Darko was an RPG. No, Smartmonkey, we won't play it with you.

[BreakfastOfChampions]

[quote="Neuro"]Bunny suits. We didn't know Donnie Darko was an RPG. No, Smartmonkey, we won't play it with you.[/quote]

Actually a cross between between Donnie Darko and the "You might be a Kult Player if..." and it was you wake up to your dog sitting on your chest screaming at you in Yiddish.



But yeah. Same thing.



I won't play it with SmartMonkey either.

[Lowly Uhlan]

[quote="Count Zero"]I find miniatures tend to harm my ability to role-play. I do miniature games also, so when I put out miniatures I stop visualizing the combat and start looking at the ways in which to exploit the system to take the most advantage of it.



.



Jonathan[/quote]

I agree with this. I'm a tactical miniatures player (games that are entirely minis combat, no RPing) but feel they have no place in RPGs. Roleplaying games are about imagination, props aren't needed. Minatures wargames are a different story, put an army together and kick the other guys ass. Not much background needed.



But since I didn't really understand the wording of the poll I didn't vote. :?

[Wintermute]

[quote="Lowly Uhlan"]Roleplaying games are about imagination, props aren't needed. [/quote]

Right up until your DM imagines your ass within claw range of that many-legged vorpal centipede. ;)

[Lowly Uhlan]

I hate vorpal centipedes. :)

[smartmonkey]

[quote]

Bunny suits. We didn't know Donnie Darko was an RPG. No, Smartmonkey, we won't play it with you.
[/quote]

Maybe it's cos I was stoned, but the bunny suit scared the shit out of me.

[opwunder]

[quote="Lowly Uhlan"]I hate vorpal centipedes. :)[/quote]

Depends on how big they are...When supplies run out, they can be very tasty! :P

[Neuro]

It's all about the elephant jerky.

</aod>

[Gotetsu]

I love minis. I particularly like modifying them to fit my description. Anyone in FUBAR remember my mini for Hawkfire? Although I should have had a second mini of him lying on his back, since that's where he seemed to end up most combats. :oops:

And I think combats run smoother with minis. In most games, anyways.

But minis make for good character visualizations, as well as character drawings. And you all know I LOVE those. :D

[Lowly Uhlan]

[quote="opwunder"][quote:f2768392e7="Lowly Uhlan"]I hate vorpal centipedes. :)[/quote]

Depends on how big they are...When supplies run out, they can be very tasty! :P[/quote:f2768392e7]



Wouldn't they cut your tounge out on a "20" while you were eating them? :D