Best fantasy rpg (not d20)?

Richard Logue · Post by **Richard Logue** » Mon May 17, 2004 2:54 pm

So I'm wanting to run a fantasy rpg campaign and I'm trying to decide what system to use. I need help here.

Normally, I would've just said "Rolemaster" and got to it. But in my old age I'm feeling the archaism of that system.

I refuse to use d20. I have lots of reasons for it, but i'm not going to bother explaining it all in this topic. That's not my purpose here.

What I want, is to get you opinions on what's best (and, of course, not d20). Thanks!

cczernia · Post by **cczernia** » Mon May 17, 2004 3:28 pm

What is important to you in a system? Do you want lots of detail with everything broken down or do you want fast play or something easy to learn? What is about d20 that you don't like? What about rolemaster? There are tons of systems out there and without further information we can't point you in the right direction.

Wintermute · Post by **Wintermute** » Mon May 17, 2004 3:39 pm

BESM or White Wolf.

Not because I think the systems are particularly well suited (or not suited) for a fantasy campaign, just because most BESM and White Wolf players share your opinion of d20.

BlanchPrez · Post by **BlanchPrez** » Mon May 17, 2004 4:03 pm

I would say it really depends on the TYPE of fantasy game you want to run.

There's always Decipher's LOTR game. I would not recomend BESM myself, as I don't think the Tri-Stat system works particularly well.

Is Rune still out there? Don't actually know much about the system, but it's not D20.

Chris

cczernia · Post by **cczernia** » Mon May 17, 2004 4:11 pm

~~[quote="BlanchPrez"]~~IIs Rune still out there? Don't actually know much about the system, but it's not D20.[/quote]

Rune's system is based off the system for Ars Magica which has one of the best magic system in gaming. Unfortuantly, if you don't plan on focusing on magic than the system is shakey. I've run combat in both Ars Magica and Rune (during a playtest actually) and found it to be cumbersome.

However, Ars Magica 5th edition should be out this year and hopefully fixes some of the problems. If you want to run Fantasy without the focus on combat than Ars Magica is a good choice.

Gotetsu · Post by **Gotetsu** » Mon May 17, 2004 4:11 pm

All of the "Universal" systems, like Hero, Gurps & Palladium, have fantasy suppliments. Have you tried one of them?

Shin Kenshiro · Post by **Shin Kenshiro** » Mon May 17, 2004 5:13 pm

Palladium fantasy is my favorite in this category. Good detailed world and alot of things to do. Not a fan of the GURPS thing and HERO.

Barrier Peaks · Post by **Barrier Peaks** » Mon May 17, 2004 8:24 pm

The latest edition of "Stormbringer" is one of my favorite fantasy role-playing games. Not necessarily for the setting (which I find somewhat sparse and dry), but the system is good and easily adapted. If you like the BRPG system (used in Call of Cthulhu), you'll probably dig Stormbringer quite a bit.

BP

Lowly Uhlan · Post by **Lowly Uhlan** » Mon May 17, 2004 8:29 pm

Decipher's LoTR is a real gem. Great system, simple, detailed where it needs to be.

Fantasy Hero is a good generic system. Hero 5E or Sidekick as the core, the Fantasy Hero genre book for the fantasy options. Lots of crunch though, if you like rules lite this ain't the way to go.

Shin Kenshiro · Post by **Shin Kenshiro** » Mon May 17, 2004 9:57 pm

I tried, but just couldn't get into HERO. The system was cool in that you could create literally anything....but I'd rather have to deal with the holes in the Palladium system rather than re-take calculus to figure out combat in HERO.

Lowly Uhlan · Post by **Lowly Uhlan** » Mon May 17, 2004 11:13 pm

~~[quote="Shin Kenshiro"]~~I tried, but just couldn't get into HERO. The system was cool in that you could create literally anything....but I'd rather have to deal with the holes in the Palladium system rather than re-take calculus to figure out combat in HERO.[/quote]

Another dumb calculus joke. Yeah, basic multiplication, addition and subtraction of fractions is tough.

Chulainn · Post by **Chulainn** » Tue May 18, 2004 6:05 am

~~[quote="Lowly Uhlan"]~~[quote:2d73adb1ea="Shin Kenshiro"]I tried, but just couldn't get into HERO. The system was cool in that you could create literally anything....but I'd rather have to deal with the holes in the Palladium system rather than re-take calculus to figure out combat in HERO.[/quote]

Another dumb calculus joke. Yeah, basic multiplication, addition and subtraction of fractions is tough.[/quote:2d73adb1ea]

Fact is HERO is just a very crunchy system that requires alot of math.The math is not difficult but I do it all day long so I have absolutely no desire to do it during my spare time since that would mean gaming is like work..acckkk :shock:

:lol:

C

Count Zero · Post by **Count Zero** » Tue May 18, 2004 6:08 am

~~[quote="Wintermute"]~~BESM or White Wolf.

Not because I think the systems are particularly well suited (or not suited) for a fantasy campaign, just because most BESM and White Wolf players share your opinion of d20.[/quote]

I don't play either of those games... so that doesn't work out. :P

Count Zero · Post by **Count Zero** » Tue May 18, 2004 6:10 am

~~[quote="Chulainn"]~~[quote:017c674eef="Lowly Uhlan"][quote:017c674eef="Shin Kenshiro"]I tried, but just couldn't get into HERO. The system was cool in that you could create literally anything....but I'd rather have to deal with the holes in the Palladium system rather than re-take calculus to figure out combat in HERO.[/quote]

Another dumb calculus joke. Yeah, basic multiplication, addition and subtraction of fractions is tough.[/quote:017c674eef]

Fact is HERO is just a very crunchy system that requires alot of math.The math is not difficult but I do it all day long so I have absolutely no desire to do it during my spare time since that would mean gaming is like work..acckkk :shock:

:lol:

C[/quote:017c674eef]

Ah... Hero Designer.... takes the math right out of it.

Jonathan

BlanchPrez · Post by **BlanchPrez** » Tue May 18, 2004 6:12 am

~~[quote="Count Zero"]~~I don't play either of those games... so that doesn't work out. :P[/quote]

Wow, that's quite an ego you got there CZ. He didn't say that BESM and WW players were the only ones that hated D20, just that people that play BESM and WW tend to hate D20. :roll:

Chris

Count Zero · Post by **Count Zero** » Tue May 18, 2004 6:21 am

~~[quote="BlanchPrez"]~~[quote:83aa29cd00="Count Zero"]I don't play either of those games... so that doesn't work out. :P[/quote]

Wow, that's quite an ego you got there CZ. He didn't say that BESM and WW players were the only ones that hated D20, just that people that play BESM and WW tend to hate D20. :roll:

Chris[/quote:83aa29cd00]

Dude, chill out.. I was being silly.

Jonathan

Chulainn · Post by **Chulainn** » Tue May 18, 2004 7:33 am

~~[quote="Count Zero"]~~[quote:02eb1ff772="Chulainn"][quote:02eb1ff772="Lowly Uhlan"][quote:02eb1ff772="Shin Kenshiro"]I tried, but just couldn't get into HERO. The system was cool in that you could create literally anything....but I'd rather have to deal with the holes in the Palladium system rather than re-take calculus to figure out combat in HERO.[/quote]

Another dumb calculus joke. Yeah, basic multiplication, addition and subtraction of fractions is tough.[/quote:02eb1ff772]

Fact is HERO is just a very crunchy system that requires alot of math.The math is not difficult but I do it all day long so I have absolutely no desire to do it during my spare time since that would mean gaming is like work..acckkk :shock:

:lol:

C[/quote:02eb1ff772]

Ah... Hero Designer.... takes the math right out of it.

Jonathan[/quote:02eb1ff772]

for character creation only...still have to play in that "Crunchy" evylle :twisted: system.

:wink:

C

cczernia · Post by **cczernia** » Tue May 18, 2004 8:05 am

~~[quote="Chulainn"]~~for character creation only...still have to play in that "Crunchy" evylle :twisted: system.[/quote]

There is a lot less math during play than there is during character creation. However, there is some stupid things about HERO that need to be fixed.

1. OCV/DCV - One of them should permanantly have the 11 added to it. It is stupid to constantly be adding AND subtracting during each combat round

2. Damage

a. Stun Attack - killing damage should be equal to how much dice you are rolling

b. Killing Attack - the stun mulitplier should be a static number (3 or 4)

3. Reduce the number of total combat rounds that is dependant on speed. Let character who have a higher speed more often. Actually, the whole speed thing could probably be completly reworked.

4. Endurance - This needs to be tied in with stun damage or simplified somehow. It requires too much record keeping and removes from the focus of the game. You are constatly asking what removes endurance and what doesn't.

Other than that, the HERO system is OK :wink:

Count Zero · Post by **Count Zero** » Tue May 18, 2004 8:36 am

~~[quote="cczernia"]~~[quote:91e82e0d9c="Chulainn"]for character creation only...still have to play in that "Crunchy" evylle :twisted: system.[/quote]

There is a lot less math during play than there is during character creation. However, there is some stupid things about HERO that need to be fixed.

1. OCV/DCV - One of them should permanantly have the 11 added to it. It is stupid to constantly be adding AND subtracting during each combat round

2. Damage

a. Stun Attack - killing damage should be equal to how much dice you are rolling

b. Killing Attack - the stun mulitplier should be a static number (3 or 4)

3. Reduce the number of total combat rounds that is dependant on speed. Let character who have a higher speed more often. Actually, the whole speed thing could probably be completly reworked.

4. Endurance - This needs to be tied in with stun damage or simplified somehow. It requires too much record keeping and removes from the focus of the game. You are constatly asking what removes endurance and what doesn't.

Other than that, the HERO system is OK :wink:[/quote:91e82e0d9c]

You have some good points there. Killing and Stun Damage could be done by simply having it be each die represents one point of body damage. As to the OCV/DCV, yeah... there could be a way to rework that so it could be done more smoothly.

As to the speed chart... I am looking at that now. The speed chart slows down game play. While the simulationist in me loves it, the narrativist in me screams everytime I have to start at phase one.

Actually, endurace is easy... powers and strength cost 1 point of endurance for every 10 active points. The book keeping part of it is rather irritating though. I do like the concept though.. it is very comic book.

Jonathan

Lowly Uhlan · Post by **Lowly Uhlan** » Tue May 18, 2004 8:46 am

~~[quote="cczernia"]~~[quote:f20be0cad9="Chulainn"]for character creation only...still have to play in that "Crunchy" evylle :twisted: system.[/quote]

There is a lot less math during play than there is during character creation. However, there is some stupid things about HERO that need to be fixed.

1. OCV/DCV - One of them should permanantly have the 11 added to it. It is stupid to constantly be adding AND subtracting during each combat round

2. Damage

a. Stun Attack - killing damage should be equal to how much dice you are rolling

b. Killing Attack - the stun mulitplier should be a static number (3 or 4)

3. Reduce the number of total combat rounds that is dependant on speed. Let character who have a higher speed more often. Actually, the whole speed thing could probably be completly reworked.

4. Endurance - This needs to be tied in with stun damage or simplified somehow. It requires too much record keeping and removes from the focus of the game. You are constatly asking what removes endurance and what doesn't.

Other than that, the HERO system is OK :wink:[/quote:f20be0cad9]

1. I totally agree

2. Your fix for KD doesn't take in to account good rolls (lots of sixes). And there's good optional rules for STUN multipliers on KA's.

3. I disagree. The speed chart gets a little cumbersome when you're dealing with true superheroes, works really well (from a GM's viewpoint) for heroic-level combat (Star Hero, Fantasy Hero)

4. You might have a point. I really doubt the Hero PTB will ever change it though.

cczernia · Post by **cczernia** » Tue May 18, 2004 12:48 pm

~~[quote="Lowly Uhlan"]~~

2. Your fix for KD doesn't take in to account good rolls (lots of sixes). And there's good optional rules for STUN multipliers on KA's.

3. I disagree. The speed chart gets a little cumbersome when you're dealing with true superheroes, works really well (from a GM's viewpoint) for heroic-level combat (Star Hero, Fantasy Hero)[/quote]

2. Yes, but 1's also equal 0 KD making it even out. So, on average your total will most likely come out to equal to, or just above or below the amount of diced you rolled. With so little variation I see no point in rolling at all. I just takes up game time.

3. The concept behind the speed chart isn't a bad one but I think they could have streamlined it. The only reason it seems to have 12 slots is for Speedy Supers characters and there powers could have been handled better. So, reducing the total number of slots to 6 would be a start.

Chulainn · Post by **Chulainn** » Tue May 18, 2004 1:43 pm

~~[quote="Lowly Uhlan"]~~[quote:f588ca78cb="cczernia"][quote:f588ca78cb="Chulainn"]for character creation only...still have to play in that "Crunchy" evylle :twisted: system.[/quote]

There is a lot less math during play than there is during character creation. However, there is some stupid things about HERO that need to be fixed.

1. OCV/DCV - One of them should permanantly have the 11 added to it. It is stupid to constantly be adding AND subtracting during each combat round

2. Damage

a. Stun Attack - killing damage should be equal to how much dice you are rolling

b. Killing Attack - the stun mulitplier should be a static number (3 or 4)

3. Reduce the number of total combat rounds that is dependant on speed. Let character who have a higher speed more often. Actually, the whole speed thing could probably be completly reworked.

4. Endurance - This needs to be tied in with stun damage or simplified somehow. It requires too much record keeping and removes from the focus of the game. You are constatly asking what removes endurance and what doesn't.

Other than that, the HERO system is OK :wink:[/quote:f588ca78cb]

1. I totally agree

2. Your fix for KD doesn't take in to account good rolls (lots of sixes). And there's good optional rules for STUN multipliers on KA's.

3. I disagree. The speed chart gets a little cumbersome when you're dealing with true superheroes, works really well (from a GM's viewpoint) for heroic-level combat (Star Hero, Fantasy Hero)

4. You might have a point. I really doubt the Hero PTB will ever change it though.[/quote:f588ca78cb]

I would just like to thank you all for proving my point...."Crunchy System". I now return you to you regually scheduled discussion.

C

Count Zero · Post by **Count Zero** » Tue May 18, 2004 2:18 pm

~~[quote="Chulainn"]~~I would just like to thank you all for proving my point...."Crunchy System". I now return you to you regually scheduled discussion.[/quote]

But is is a fun crunchy.

smartmonkey · Post by **smartmonkey** » Tue May 18, 2004 6:35 pm

Meh, I'm assuming your refrence to Rolemaster being "archaic" is regarding the -huge- learning curve and complexity in the system. You also don't want to use d20 - which is understandable, d20 doesn't work for everyone all of the time, it certainly gives me headaches. Heres a few suggestions:

Diceless gaming: Active Exploits. Available free online. Google it.
FATE: Nicely detailed character creation without all the crunchy bits. Fudge mechanic is a bit vanilla, but give it a whirl. Free online @ http://www.fate-rpg.com, or faterpg.com, one of those.
Earthdawn: Can't say much good about the system (except that it's simpler than rolemaster), but it's setting is pretty cool...
Nobilis: It's weird enough to count as fantasy, though certainly not Tolkienesque stuff. It's diceles, and has probably the coolest setting/mechanics I've run across...

Anyways. Hope that helped. Look up the free ones, in any case.

Shin Kenshiro · Post by **Shin Kenshiro** » Tue May 18, 2004 7:06 pm

~~[quote="Lowly Uhlan"]~~Another dumb calculus joke. Yeah, basic multiplication, addition and subtraction of fractions is tough.[/quote]

Oh yes, math is scary....

Especially when you need more D6's than my entire dice collection and you have to roll god knows how many times whenever combat's involved. I just can't support that system

Count Zero · Post by **Count Zero** » Wed May 19, 2004 6:08 am

~~[quote="Shin Kenshiro"]~~[quote:57b89ce4f2="Lowly Uhlan"]Another dumb calculus joke. Yeah, basic multiplication, addition and subtraction of fractions is tough.[/quote]

Oh yes, math is scary....

Especially when you need more D6's than my entire dice collection and you have to roll god knows how many times whenever combat's involved. I just can't support that system[/quote:57b89ce4f2]

one Die roll to hit... just like D20... and on die roll for damage... just like D20.... him... two die rolls. :P

But, I can understand the frustration with the bucket o' dice aspect of Hero. The key is getting the hang of how to read the dice. Also, keep in mind that when you were playing it I was still learning the system myself so I wouldn't consider that a good measure of the system.

When you are playing it with lower powered stuff rather than super heroes, they system becomes more manageable. But, it is a very mechanics heavy system, which some people don't like and I can understand that.

As to systems to play....

Silhouette is good if you want fast and gritty

Hero is good if you want lots of detail

GURPS isn't bad but isn't one of my favorites

D20 is good if you want players.

Jonathan

smartmonkey · Post by **smartmonkey** » Wed May 19, 2004 11:59 am

Take a look at Talislanta as well. I've never taken a close look at it, but theres a -fanatical- following of it online...

Shin Kenshiro · Post by **Shin Kenshiro** » Wed May 19, 2004 12:33 pm

~~[quote="Count Zero"]~~[quote:f91dedc105="Shin Kenshiro"][quote:f91dedc105="Lowly Uhlan"]Another dumb calculus joke. Yeah, basic multiplication, addition and subtraction of fractions is tough.[/quote]

Oh yes, math is scary....

Especially when you need more D6's than my entire dice collection and you have to roll god knows how many times whenever combat's involved. I just can't support that system[/quote:f91dedc105]

one Die roll to hit... just like D20... and on die roll for damage... just like D20.... him... two die rolls. :P

But, I can understand the frustration with the bucket o' dice aspect of Hero. The key is getting the hang of how to read the dice. Also, keep in mind that when you were playing it I was still learning the system myself so I wouldn't consider that a good measure of the system.

When you are playing it with lower powered stuff rather than super heroes, they system becomes more manageable. But, it is a very mechanics heavy system, which some people don't like and I can understand that.

As to systems to play....

Silhouette is good if you want fast and gritty

Hero is good if you want lots of detail

GURPS isn't bad but isn't one of my favorites

D20 is good if you want players.

Jonathan[/quote:f91dedc105]

Thanks J, I had almost forgotten about that whole "getting used to it part" :lol:

So yeah, I see your guys' points...but it's just a bit more than I personally like when learning a new system. I'm pretty much set in my Silhouette/Fuzion/Palladium ways...mainly because I can't shell out anymore cash on a different system. :(

MarktheAnimator · Post by **MarktheAnimator** » Thu May 20, 2004 3:25 am

Wintermute · Post by **Wintermute** » Thu May 20, 2004 11:21 am

~~[quote="MarktheAnimator"]~~The combat and magic systems are fairly realistic and unique.
[/quote]

I'm not sure how I feel about a realistic magic system.

Player: I cast fireball.

GM: (rolls dice) Nothing happens.

Player: Crap. Uhhh, I cast invisibility.

GM: (rolls dice) It appears he can still see you.

Player: I order him to pick a card, any card.

GM: He does so.

Player I tell him to remember the card, then shuffle it back into the deck. Now I wish to pull that same card from the deck.

GM: (rolls dice) Your spell works. He is intrigued.

cczernia · Post by **cczernia** » Thu May 20, 2004 11:59 am

~~[quote="Wintermute"]~~[quote:3277e8a9f3="MarktheAnimator"]The combat and magic systems are fairly realistic and unique.
[/quote]

I'm not sure how I feel about a realistic magic system.

Player: I cast fireball.

GM: (rolls dice) Nothing happens.

Player: Crap. Uhhh, I cast invisibility.

GM: (rolls dice) It appears he can still see you.

Player: I order him to pick a card, any card.

GM: He does so.

Player I tell him to remember the card, then shuffle it back into the deck. Now I wish to pull that same card from the deck.

GM: (rolls dice) Your spell works. He is intrigued.[/quote:3277e8a9f3]

Well, that's defianitly unique. :)

Chulainn · Post by **Chulainn** » Thu May 20, 2004 2:26 pm

It is like magic, Only real ! 8)

C

cczernia · Post by **cczernia** » Thu May 20, 2004 2:59 pm

~~[quote="Chulainn"]~~It is like magic, Only real ! 8) [/quote]

:lolup:

It will be my undoing.

smartmonkey · Post by **smartmonkey** » Thu May 20, 2004 3:36 pm

Bleh. My favorite magic system is still Mages... though Ars Magicas system is really growing on me...

And winter, you just like that last option cos your DnD character has sleight of hand +27, or something ungodly...

Chulainn · Post by **Chulainn** » Fri May 21, 2004 5:33 am

For the record Sleight of Hand is a good skill to have...and I am not talking about DnD characters. 8)

C