Oh lookie! The "I'm being oppressed" card...

Shin Kenshiro · Post by **Shin Kenshiro** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 12:19 pm

...at UCLA. Loved listening to this kid scream about "patriot act" and all the other things while constantly refusing to do what the cops said. The comments were even more fun to read. Because the cops tasered a kid...they're Nazis. That was the recurring theme in all the comments attacking the police. Then there's the whole "the cops were racist because he was Iranian!!" Nevermind the whole constant disobeying of the cops while condemning them.

Overall, an incredibly comical situation made even more hilarious by sheltered poli-sci majors.

Poooooor baby

BlanchPrez · Post by **BlanchPrez** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 12:23 pm

I'm confused... why were the cops there in the first place? What did this guy do that required cops to arrest him?

Chris

Shin Kenshiro · Post by **Shin Kenshiro** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 12:31 pm

~~[quote="BlanchPrez"]~~I'm confused... why were the cops there in the first place? What did this guy do that required cops to arrest him?

Chris[/quote]

The kid, Mostafa, didn't have his school ID on him when he was in the library. During a random ID check (the school closes the library past 11pm to all non-students and then checks ID's to make sure vagrants aren't there) they found out he didn't have his ID. They told him to leave and he refused....so they called the campus police. Now, campus police are not "rent-a-cops" like people think...they are full police officers with the city of Los Angeles. So they came to escort him out. He started getting belligerent and when they tried to take him out, he started screaming at them and wouldn't go. So they told him if he didn't he'd be tazed.

He refused, got tazed, then tried to incite the growing crowd to fight the police by playing the race card, the "cops are facists" card, and the "help help I'm being oppressed" card.

Gotetsu · Post by **Gotetsu** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:07 pm

Ok, call me cruel and sadistic, but my stomach hurts from laughing now. Thanks man!

Although I have to say, the guy in the white t-shirt yelling at the cops was just begging for a beatdown. And not by the cops. I thought they did an excellent job of being professional.

Stupid kids.

J@ke · Post by **J@ke** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:09 pm

Looks to me that there was dushbagery on both sides. The cops handled the situation about as badly as they could. I really don't see how they needed to tase the guy. Why couldn't they just drag the him out of there? And to be fair "cops are fascists" and "help help I'm being oppressed" has nothing to do with race.

Shin Kenshiro · Post by **Shin Kenshiro** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:48 pm

~~[quote="J@ke"]~~Looks to me that there was dushbagery on both sides. The cops handled the situation about as badly as they could. I really don't see how they needed to tase the guy. Why couldn't they just drag the him out of there? And to be fair "cops are fascists" and "help help I'm being oppressed" has nothing to do with race.[/quote]

True, the last two don't have to do with race, but the race card was played first. Still, having listened to the cops constantly telling him to move or get tased he STILL refused and cursed at them. At no point in time did he say he was incapable of moving, he was just being a chump. The cops were well within their responsiblities to subdue him as he was A) constantly disobeying them and B) trying to incite the crowd to attack.

Skyman · Post by **Skyman** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:33 pm

~~[quote="J@ke"]~~Looks to me that there was dushbagery on both sides. The cops handled the situation about as badly as they could. I really don't see how they needed to tase the guy. Why couldn't they just drag the him out of there? And to be fair "cops are fascists" and "help help I'm being oppressed" has nothing to do with race.[/quote]

So I'm watching the video and saying to myself that this is a really stupid situation and somewhat giggling because, much like Gotetsu, watching taser usage is like watching the South Park movie with Cartman having the V chip...zapped everytime he cusses=hilarity. Afterward I'm watching this crap and wondering WTF does this have to do with a race card...I mean really, thats the title of this thread right? Like Shin says its race card...well it's gotta be a race card...right?! He says it happens first. So I watch it at the start and I just don't see it or hear it. I really don't think Shin is one of those folks who cries race card for no apparent reason, so I looked up some back story on this...

~~[url]~~http://www.dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?id=38958[/url]

~~[url]~~http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZiIebst4fc[/url]

skyman

Gotetsu · Post by **Gotetsu** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:57 am

Ok, here's my take on this. Several facors make this whole thing rather questionable from many anspects.

1) The crappy filming. I mean, was this guy even looking at his phone while he tried to film it?

2) Timing. The event had started before this guy got his camera working, so who knows what happened before that?

3) These are college students, admittedly full of righteous indignation (weren't we all at that age?), so their views are going to be slanted.

4) The news is notorious (and I mean all of them) for jumping to popular conclusions. No one wants to watch a broadcast that tells them what they don't want to hear.

In then, it comes down to the word of a bunch of "sheltered poli sci majors" backed up by crappy cinematography, versus the word of police officers, sworn public servants. Call me a blind idealist, but, all things considered, I'm willing to side with the cops on this one. I mean the guy was told like 50 times to get up. And several times before he was first tazered.

Anyways, just my $.02.

J@ke · Post by **J@ke** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 11:25 am

I actually agree with you on all points. I just think the situation should have been handled better. Like I said, drag the kid out. No fuss, no muss. Plus I have a real problem with the way tasers have been used in recent years. They shouldn't be used as a part of some pain compliance technique. They should be used to subdue a dangerous person. This kid presented no danger to them. In fact tasering him put them in a lot more danger. Things could have gotten a lot uglier real easy.

smartmonkey · Post by **smartmonkey** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:18 pm

If the kid had been smart, he would have done exactly as the cops asked, and filed a grievance if he -really- thought he was being discriminated against.

That said, those cops are dumb. It is far, -far- safer to drag someone out of a building in handcuffs than to tazer him. The chance of injury or death from a tazer hit is very, very small, but it's enough that using it in a situation that doesn't warrant it is retarded.

If he struck one of the officers, or even just spit on him, they'll get away with using the tazer. Cops get to match the level of force involved +1. So, vs fists, tazer comes out, vs knife, gun comes out, vs gun, -big- guns come out.

Skyman · Post by **Skyman** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 7:55 pm

I suspect the responding CSO's are to blame. They were there before the cops, phone cameras and were obviously the ones who painted the picture for them and initially engaged the student...who obviously doesn't look like a vagrant loitering in the library.

BTW: I don't see the race card being played from what's presented. Its kinda irritating...to think that this is how this thread is titled when i can't find it in the content

The whole thing reminds me of a Monty Python scene

Shin Kenshiro · Post by **Shin Kenshiro** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 12:32 pm

Unfortunately, I jumped the gun and did something I often lambast others for. Upon re-inspection of just what had been said & played, I am more than willing to see that the thread was mistitled. I was referring to the comments section of the initial video and mixed them up in my head. I've got no problems admitting I was wrong. So yeah, I apologize for that.

I still think the kid got what he deserved and I side with the cops, though I don't know how to change the thread title.

smartmonkey · Post by **smartmonkey** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 5:04 pm

~~[quote]~~ I still think the kid got what he deserved and I side with the cops, though I don't know how to change the thread title. [/quote]

I'm a little hesitant to say the cops were in the right.

mordraine · Post by **mordraine** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 6:07 pm

How's that for a better thread title?

Skyman · Post by **Skyman** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:57 pm

~~[quote="mordraine"]~~How's that for a better thread title?[/quote]

Most expressive of what is inherent in the system...good job

Count Zero · Post by **Count Zero** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 4:21 pm

I find it odd that they couldn't simply ask the kid to come to the front with an ID so they could look him up in the system. After all, my little school in Kansas could do that. I would be suprised if UCLA couldn't do the same. The policy seems pretty odd or poorly implemented, not sure which.

Also, last I checked, cops weren't suppose to touch you at first, unless the "Community Service Officiers" (which is a creepy title in and of itself) didn't inform the cops properly, there was no need to touch him. A simple, "Excuse me sir" would probably have worked. The guy was on his way out, either way the result was the student leaving.

If a cop grabbed me I out of the blue (or at least what seemed like it), I would probably pull away and demand to know what the problem is. The cops might have come from the side out of his field of vision, so he might not have realized initially that it was a cop.

All the cops had to do was be polite and simply ask to see ID. Then, check it with school record. Then apologize for the confusion, but remind him to have is BruinCard thingy with him next time or he would need to leave the library upon request. Instead, they seemed to immediately become aggressive.

How much of dick the student was to the CSO's is in question, which may have effected how they reported it. Of course, the CSO's sound like student volunteer's and if some guy walked up and asked for my ID, I might tell him to go to hell, because to be honest.. that is kind of weird. If you know you are suppose to be there because you are a student, you are going to get kind of annoyed.

Considering how abusive police in LA seem to be, I have little faith in them. I don't see why tasering him multiple times was necessary. Once I might be able to understand. Two large cops can easily drag the schmuck out the door. They were tasering him to be cruel. The cops threatened to taser people who asked for thier badge numbers. Our police are becoming more and more aggressive in situations that don't seem to require it. Additionally, we simply accept it as "necessary". That creeps me out.

I am sure both sides made mistakes, but police are burdened with a great responsiblity and are expected to behave better than the idiot who didn't show is ID. Simply put, I expect the college student to be a dick and an ass... but our police officiers are suppose to be better.

Shin Kenshiro · Post by **Shin Kenshiro** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 5:52 pm

To defend the cops threats of tasering the crowd...when it's only 3 of you and 2 of you are occupied dealing with a highly uncooperative suspect plus the crowd is getting louder and closer while making demands...?

Yeah, for their own safety they were well within their rights as law enforcement officers to do so. It kept the college kids back (for all their bravado, not one of them wanted to risk getting their own butts tased...more proof of loud bark/weak bite) and they were able to drag the suspect out. In case you didn't notice, they DID have to drag him out, but the whole "it's easy to drag someone out" concept fails here. An officer must be ready to defend himself and maintain control of the suspect at all times. Just dragging the kid out while he's screaming obscenities and trying to incite the other students is not a good option.

Then you have the training. Every officer who has a taser has been held down and tased himself/herself. The cops know what it's like, they know the effects, and they know what the recovery time is. They aren't just given one and told to go have fun. The whole "can't walk" crap is just that. The voltage is high, but volts don't kill or disable your nervous system for prolongued time. It's the amperage that does it. That's why you can take 50,000 volts from a taser and be fine in 5-10 seconds while sticking your finger in a 120V outlet can kill you.

As time advances our officers are given more and more humane ways to subdue people (imagine the shitstorm if the cops had used nightsticks) and yet the populace still can't say "police brutality" fast enough whenever someone videotapes a cop.

Neuro · Post by **Neuro** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:37 am

Because cops never resort to excessive violence:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/22/woman. ... index.html

I don't care if there there were whole bales of heroin, if heroin comes in such a thing as a bale, when a bunch of men have to shoot a 92 year old woman, they've done something wrong. Really, really wrong.

Shin Kenshiro · Post by **Shin Kenshiro** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:35 am

Did you completely miss the part where she SHOT the cops first???

~~[quote]~~As the plainclothes Atlanta police officers approached the house about 7 p.m., ~~[b]~~~~[i][u]~~a woman inside started shooting, striking each of them[/u][/i][/b], said Officer Joe Cobb, a police spokesman.

One was hit in the arm, another in a thigh and the third in a shoulder. The officers were taken to a hospital for treatment, and all three were conscious and alert, police said.

[/quote]

I don't care if the "victim" is 190 or 5 years old. You shoot a cop, you get shot. That is the most ridiculous concept ever...."that person's old, don't hurt her." Police brutality, my ass...she SHOT 3 cops!

~~[quote]~~The officers had a legal warrant, "knocked and announced" before they forced open the door and were justified in shooting once fired upon, he said.[/quote]

A legal warrant to search the house, announced their presence and intentions...and they get shot. That old lady deserved every bullet she got.

Count Zero · Post by **Count Zero** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:25 am

~~[quote="Shin Kenshiro"]~~To defend the cops threats of tasering the crowd...when it's only 3 of you and 2 of you are occupied dealing with a highly uncooperative suspect plus the crowd is getting louder and closer while making demands...?[/quote]

And experience would have told those cops that the bark was less than the bite. You see it in the video. The student demands his badge number and he says to get back or he will be tased. Always. I can understand tasing the guy once, but five times? Also, consider this...

~~[url]~~http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-taser21nov21,0,1459046.story?coll=la-home-headlines[/url]

The officier has a history. He may have been fully justified, but I am always suspect of anyone with power.

Of course, I haven't been able to find much about the student though. He may have had a history that we don't know about. From what I understand, he thought he was being targeted from the start because if his arab ethnicity. Feeling like you are beening pursecuted because of your race can get a little frustrating. Imagine if every time you went someplace you were subject to unusual attention because you were white. I'm not talking about police, but everyone. How many times do we take a second look at someone we think is muslim? I am sure there is a point you get a little pissed off. People can get irrational because of things like that. It is the job of the police to calm that person down.

~~[quote]~~Then you have the training. Every officer who has a taser has been held down and tased himself/herself. The cops know what it's like, they know the effects, and they know what the recovery time is. They aren't just given one and told to go have fun. The whole "can't walk" crap is just that. The voltage is high, but volts don't kill or disable your nervous system for prolongued time. It's the amperage that does it. That's why you can take 50,000 volts from a taser and be fine in 5-10 seconds while sticking your finger in a 120V outlet can kill you.[/quote]

I have read that sometimes it can put you down for longer. Also you have to consider the suprise of the subject. While a cop knows what it feels like, Joe Schmoe doesn't. It may stun him a bit longer simply because of the suprise of it. It is a lot easier to recover from pain you have experienced before. Also, wasn't their some mention of the kid yelling he had a medical condition of some kind? It may have been more taxing on his system. The cops may have been justified in the first hit of the taser... but five seems a little extreme.

Count Zero · Post by **Count Zero** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:35 am

~~[quote="Shin Kenshiro"]~~A legal warrant to search the house, announced their presence and intentions...and they get shot. That old lady deserved every bullet she got.[/quote]

I know this is a big "what if". She was 92. Maybe she didn't hear then announce themselves. Even old ladies in the hood have guns. So you have these guys in plain clothes busting down your door in a rough neighborhood. You just start firing. It could have just been a big fuck up. Unlikely, but a possibility.:biggrin:

Generally, police don't knock and wait for someone to come to the door to answer it. Usually, they announce themselves and then kick down the door. I understand why they do it that way.

Also, the article has conflicting information about the order of events.

mordraine · Post by **mordraine** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:52 am

It sounds like, according to the article, that they were shot while coming up on the house, not while they were inside.

I dunno, seems like a very strange occurance, with no clear cut villain on either side. There's really not enough information in that article to side with either party. Certainly the cops were shot, which gives them the edge, justification-wise. But why would a 92 yr old woman be shooting at police? It's all kinda weird.

Neuro · Post by **Neuro** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:35 am

Something tells me that the application of common sense could stop a lot of injuries that result from police action in this country. If you're putting yourself in situations where the only option is to harm young people or shoot old people, you're not effectively searching for other options. We need people to be unafraid to apply some creativity in law enforcement. There are usually third answers.

Count Zero · Post by **Count Zero** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:40 am

~~[quote="mordraine"]~~There's really not enough information in that article to side with either party.[/quote]

Yeah.. I that is what I noticed. Because at one point it gives you the impression they got shot when entering the house after announcing themselves. Then it says something about them getting shot at while they were in the street.

It all sounds very odd.

Shin Kenshiro · Post by **Shin Kenshiro** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 12:00 pm

If an officer has a history of crossing the line, then yes, I will concede that there is the possibility of excessive force. If all 4 of those cops did, then I will even go so far as to say it was most likely excessive force. However, if it was just the one cop and he was going over the line...I'd like to think the other cops would have stopped him. It's my crazy notion of people becoming cops because they want to help...not shoot old ladies or electrocute muslim student. Still, mob mentality can happen with anyone from student to police, so like I said I'm willing to give your side of the argument credit.

The medical condition part still gets me though. He said it once...never repeated it and never once stated he was incapable of standing. It is my personal (and very biased) opinion that the kid said he had a medical condition in order not to get tased when in reality he had no such thing. He had the presence of mind to scream about the Patriot Act, about abuse of power, and to swear at the cops...but he couldn't even tell them he couldn't stand up or to say his medical condition prevented him from complying? No, I call bullshit on the "medical condition."

Shin Kenshiro · Post by **Shin Kenshiro** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 12:04 pm

~~[quote="Count Zero"]~~I know this is a big "what if". She was 92. Maybe she didn't hear then announce themselves. Even old ladies in the hood have guns. So you have these guys in plain clothes busting down your door in a rough neighborhood. You just start firing. It could have just been a big fuck up. Unlikely, but a possibility.:biggrin:

Generally, police don't knock and wait for someone to come to the door to answer it. Usually, they announce themselves and then kick down the door. I understand why they do it that way.

Also, the article has conflicting information about the order of events.[/quote]

Actually, when serving a warrant they most often DO knock and announce unless they have reason to believe the people inside are armed & dangerous. They don't just rush in every time with guns blazing. Confusion or not, she shot 3 police officers....and people are complaining she got shot afterwards because of it? I honestly don't understand how something so ridiculously cut & dry is running into any form of protest.

Skyman · Post by **Skyman** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 12:28 pm

I think the sticky thing with the student is whether or not he was handcuffed already when he was tazed. Some may consider it fairly brutal at that point since he may be considered subdued and under the custody of the officers at that point, thus his wellfare is the cops responsibility. I only say this because this rationale was given to me during my time as a rent a cop at a mall in Riverside during my college days...which really has nothing to do with LAPD. When he cries Medical condition that is going to be ignored unless he's wearing one of those medical bracelets...you'll get a whole medical history of stuff when cuffs are involved.

I can understand how his fellow workers just let him do what he did....

Neuro · Post by **Neuro** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:14 pm

I suppose I simply wonder what would happen if people made it their priority to look for more peaceful solutions. I would bet that there might have been any number of approaches in either situation that might have led to better outcomes for everyone involved.

~~[quote="Skyman"]~~I think the sticky thing with the student is whether or not he was handcuffed already when he was tazed. Some may consider it fairly brutal at that point since he may be considered subdued and under the custody of the officers at that point, thus his wellfare is the cops responsibility. I only say this because this rationale was given to me during my time as a rent a cop at a mall in Riverside during my college days...which really has nothing to do with LAPD. When he cries Medical condition that is going to be ignored unless he's wearing one of those medical bracelets...you'll get a whole medical history of stuff when cuffs are involved.

I can understand how his fellow workers just let him do what he did....[/quote]

mordraine · Post by **mordraine** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:14 pm

~~[quote="Neuro"]~~Something tells me that the application of common sense could stop a lot of injuries that result from police action in this country. If you're putting yourself in situations where the only option is to harm young people or shoot old people, you're not effectively searching for other options. We need people to be unafraid to apply some creativity in law enforcement. There are usually third answers.[/quote]

Here's another thing to think about. We only hear about the incidents that go bad. All those thousands of incidents where cops found the third answer aren't publicized. I'm sure there are plenty of 'em.

Neuro · Post by **Neuro** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:20 pm

~~[quote="mordraine"]~~Here's another thing to think about. We only hear about the incidents that go bad. All those thousands of incidents where cops found the third answer aren't publicized. I'm sure there are plenty of 'em.[/quote]

That's absolutely the case in many places, but I've noticed that lots of PDs have their own culture. I have some relatives that were in LAPD and I think their culture really has been a culture of violence and intolerance in some years. They have their cycles and things have differed under various leadership, but some PDs in the US have reputations of violence for a reason.

Skyman · Post by **Skyman** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:14 pm

~~[quote="Neuro"]~~That's absolutely the case in many places, but I've noticed that lots of PDs have their own culture. I have some relatives that were in LAPD and I think their culture really has been a culture of violence and intolerance in some years. They have their cycles and things have differed under various leadership, but some PDs in the US have reputations of violence for a reason.[/quote]

It definately isn't Mayberry that is for sure...

You figure there are over 9,000 LA police officers and we can get to this point were you only need a few to set the tone for the rest. Yes and I believe there is a culture of us vs them in law enforcement. I remember hearing something about most officers don't live in the neighborhoods they patrol.

When I point out that some officers will see another officer step out of line and not do anything or join in just because they don't want to counter the primaries authority/decision making and disempower the other in front of suspects or have a power struggle in a middle of a situation

J@ke · Post by **J@ke** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:05 pm

Anyone know someone from high school who become a cop? I do. Grade A assholes all three of them. I also knew this really nice chick who became a cop. I talked to her a few years later and she was saying some really inappropriate stuff about her job and how she does it. I'm not saying it's a rule of law or anything. But I honestly think it attracts a certain type of person. Again, it's not the only type of person, I know there are a good number of people who are there to help. But there are enough of them the this kind of thing isn't a rarity, not by a long shot. Plus they are so above the law that they can do just about anything with impunity. Internal investigations are a joke.

Skyman · Post by **Skyman** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:09 pm

more stuff on this crap

mordraine · Post by **mordraine** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:32 pm

~~[quote="Neuro"]~~That's absolutely the case in many places, but I've noticed that lots of PDs have their own culture. I have some relatives that were in LAPD and I think their culture really has been a culture of violence and intolerance in some years. They have their cycles and things have differed under various leadership, but some PDs in the US have reputations of violence for a reason.[/quote]

No doubt.

One would hope that LAPD took a long look at their policies after the whole Rodney King affair, but we keep hearing stories. Still, there are 9,000+ cops in that department, maintaining the law every single day, 365 days a year. That's a whole lotta law enforcement going on, and the ratio of days where a shitty event happens to the days where one doesn't are pretty high. Either that, or there's a whole fuckload of shitty things going on that aren't being reported.

Neuro · Post by **Neuro** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:45 pm

~~[quote="J@ke"]~~Anyone know someone from high school who become a cop? I do. Grade A assholes all three of them. I also knew this really nice chick who became a cop. I talked to her a few years later and she was saying some really inappropriate stuff about her job and how she does it. I'm not saying it's a rule of law or anything. But I honestly think it attracts a certain type of person. Again, it's not the only type of person, I know there are a good number of people who are there to help. But there are enough of them the this kind of thing isn't a rarity, not by a long shot. Plus they are so above the law that they can do just about anything with impunity. Internal investigations are a joke.[/quote]

Yeah, the ones I knew either fell into the asshole category by a wide margin or they were total sweeties with an actual sense of civic duty, but most of those turned out to be firemen for some reason.

Neuro · Post by **Neuro** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:47 pm

~~[quote="mordraine"]~~. Either that, or there's a whole fuckload of shitty things going on that aren't being reported.[/quote]

Little of column A, little of column B. Sometime what you need is an asshole to do the job, so you hire some assholes. Unfortunately some people can't turn asshole off and on.

mrlost · Post by **mrlost** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:55 pm

~~[quote="J@ke"]~~Anyone know someone from high school who become a cop? I do. Grade A assholes all three of them. I also knew this really nice chick who became a cop. I talked to her a few years later and she was saying some really inappropriate stuff about her job and how she does it. I'm not saying it's a rule of law or anything. But I honestly think it attracts a certain type of person. Again, it's not the only type of person, I know there are a good number of people who are there to help. But there are enough of them the this kind of thing isn't a rarity, not by a long shot. Plus they are so above the law that they can do just about anything with impunity. Internal investigations are a joke.[/quote]

It generally attracts people who desire power, or people without out a lot of options. Sort of like the military seems to attract people with few other options or well never mind. If you start acting like a nice guy you get flak for it. If you keep acting like a nice guy you look suspicious to the other cops.

I've got an uncle who was a cop, and a grandfather who was one two. I used to game with a corrections officer whose job it was to shoot inmates with with non-lethal rounds from a guard tower, and beat inmates up who stepped out of line.

He told some disturbing stories let me tell you. So does my uncle, and so did my grandfather. Police scare me. The scare me because it doesn't matter what you did or what your supposed rights are when dealing with the police.

If they want to fuck with you, there is very little you can really do.

Off work they tend to be decent people. On the job though, their cops.

My philosophy is to stay as far under the radar as possible.

Anyone here actually take a Criminal Justice class?

Count Zero · Post by **Count Zero** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 5:08 pm

~~[quote="Shin Kenshiro"]~~Actually, when serving a warrant they most often DO knock and announce unless they have reason to believe the people inside are armed & dangerous. They don't just rush in every time with guns blazing. Confusion or not, she shot 3 police officers....and people are complaining she got shot afterwards because of it? I honestly don't understand how something so ridiculously cut & dry is running into any form of protest.[/quote]

I just find it kind of odd that a 92 year old was such a threat. It could have been she was like the lady from Weeds (motherly-looking black woman with a very profitable pot business). Also, it could have simply been she had a bunch of guys busting through her door in a rough neighborhood and freaked out. Hell, she was 92 and it might have taken her some time to get to the door. The cops might have thought it took too long and busted down the door and then auntie just starts busting caps in those silhouettes coming through the door. It very well could have just been a really messed up situation, or yes... 92 year old drug dealer. The article tends to contradict itself for when the shooting took place, so to be honest.. I am kind of confused.

Count Zero · Post by **Count Zero** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 5:13 pm

~~[quote="Skyman"]~~When I point out that some officers will see another officer step out of line and not do anything or join in just because they don't want to counter the primaries authority/decision making and disempower the other in front of suspects or have a power struggle in a middle of a situation[/quote]

There is something to that. Think about the incidents in Iraq with the abuse of civilians. There are your buddies and then there is this guy you are dealing with that you don't really know or don't care about. Who are you going to side with, listen to, etc. Also you have the problem with "following" orders or trusting the more experienced officier. Finally you have the issue with causing that officer to loose face and have the situation become an Us vs. Us situation which can be very hard to deal with in public. It takes a rather tough individual to step in.

Count Zero · Post by **Count Zero** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 5:20 pm

~~[quote="mrlost"]~~It generally attracts people who desire power, or people without out a lot of options. Sort of like the military seems to attract people with few other options or well never mind. If you start acting like a nice guy you get flak for it. If you keep acting like a nice guy you look suspicious to the other cops.[/quote]

Generally I have found that if you are in a position of authority and you are a "nice guy" you will get taken advantage off or get no respect. I am sure a number of cops start off with high ideals and then they just get tired of being nice because it simply makes your job more difficult.

mordraine · Post by **mordraine** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 5:25 pm

~~[quote="Neuro"]~~Unfortunately some people can't turn asshole off and on.[/quote]

Hey, I represent that remark!

Wintermute · Post by **Wintermute** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 5:35 pm

Just remember, folks... all a cop can do is arrest you (Well, or shoot you). The charges and any deals are in the hards of the D.A./prosecutor, and the sentencing is up to a judge and/or jury. Don't allow your civil rights to be overrun, but cooperate the with police and use your right to remain silent. Unless a cop is genuinely out to get you, the worst they'll do is give you some temporary jewelry and chauffeur in the back of their car.

Also, remember that cops have a very stressful job. While you may be pissed off for getting caught going a little faster than the speed limit, for all they know you're high on PCP, concealing an assault weapon, and have a body in the trunk. Be polite, don't make any sudden movements, and keep your hands in sight at all times. Don't argue with the cop, I've yet to see anyone win that argument... all you need to do is not incriminate yourself.

Count Zero · Post by **Count Zero** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:01 pm

~~[quote="Wintermute"]~~Also, remember that cops have a very stressful job. While you may be pissed off for getting caught going a little faster than the speed limit, for all they know you're high on PCP, concealing an assault weapon, and have a body in the trunk. Be polite, don't make any sudden movements, and keep your hands in sight at all times. Don't argue with the cop, I've yet to see anyone win that argument... all you need to do is not incriminate yourself.[/quote]

Well yeah.. that is just common sense. I just let cops do their jobs, because really they just want to have an easy day.

Shin Kenshiro · Post by **Shin Kenshiro** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:45 pm

~~[quote="Count Zero"]~~I just find it kind of odd that a 92 year old was such a threat. It could have been she was like the lady from Weeds (motherly-looking black woman with a very profitable pot business). Also, it could have simply been she had a bunch of guys busting through her door in a rough neighborhood and freaked out. Hell, she was 92 and it might have taken her some time to get to the door. The cops might have thought it took too long and busted down the door and then auntie just starts busting caps in those silhouettes coming through the door. It very well could have just been a really messed up situation, or yes... 92 year old drug dealer. The article tends to contradict itself for when the shooting took place, so to be honest.. I am kind of confused.[/quote]

Jon...I don't understand what you're saying in the slightest. It's not a matter of a 92 year old woman being a threat. It's a matter of someone who SHOT THREE POLICE OFFICERS! It doesn't matter what her age was, it doesn't matter what she could or could not be doing. SHE SHOT THREE COPS! THEN they shot her. The article said it could've been a case of mistaken identity regarding when they were at the door, but nothing changes the fact that the old lady...follow me here now...SHOT....THREE....OFFICERS.

How is this the police's fault? Should we keep looking for a "peaceful approach" while soaking up bullet wounds? "Oh, it's an old lady...we're terribly sorry that we bothered you. Could you please stop shooting us now?" At no point in the article does it ever say they forced entry into the woman's home. The only part of the article that says anything about their arrival is that they announced they had a warrant as per police procedure.

smartmonkey · Post by **smartmonkey** » Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:08 pm

When I was 18-19ish, I came close to going into the police. This was mostly because I was an insanely idealistic teenager. A few conversations/ride-alongs with cynical cops pretty much turned me off from the idea. My own political development in the years following have pretty much permenently closed the door on that line of work.

I have a bumper-sticker on the side of my Ranger reading 'I do not consent to being searched pursuant to my rights under the 4th ammendment of the US Constitution'. The last cop who pulled me over (for an out tail-light, believe it or not), laughed and complimented me on it.

A good friend of mine is now a cop in Chulajuana. Weirdly enough, he ticketed ANOTHER good friend of mine a month or so back. They don't know one another, but the pulled-over guy said David (the Cop) was one of the politest law officers he's ever encountered.

In any case, keep certain things in mind when dealing with cops:
-Don't -ever- touch a cop, even in a non-threatening way. If they're dicks, they can call it assault. This goes for spitting too. If you need to reach down into the car for something (i.e, your wallet, insurance card, whatever), wait until the cop is standing next to the car, and inform him of what you're doing. This goes for anything else, too. Make no sudden motions.
-The first ammendment won't get you very far. The 4th and 5th will get you quite a bit more mileage.
-If the cop asks you a question, answer truthfully. If you have pot* in the car, own up to it. The dick-quotient of a cop goes -way- up when they discover you've been lying to them.
-Ask questions. If you've been handcuffed, ask the officer why (generally 'for our safety', if they're searching your car/home), and if you are under arrest. If you are (and the reasons are not obvious), ask what your offense is. Be polite, and wait if he asks you to**. If you feel you have been subject to false arrest, ask politely that the officer provide you with his card (which most departments provide), and his badge number. Do not accuse him of anything, but be prepared to contact his department and file a complaint.
-If you have a gun or a weapon***, inform the officer immediately, and offer to provide your permits (which, hopefully, you have).
-Remember that police may visually (i.e, through windows) search your car. If anything appears suspicious from this viewing, they may search the interior, unless you refuse (this varies from state to state), in which case they'll get a bit more... Dickish. The trunk is not open for search unless they have a warrant, period. The same goes for your home - if you invite officers in, they are allowed to search (visually - no touching), for anything illegal. Evidence of wrongdoing (i.e, a bong, a murder weapon) left in plain view are a problem.

Most of this is taken from the two Administration of Justice classes I took during that idealistic-idiot phase, conversations with David (the cop), and one of my highschool ex-girlfriends Father, a sheriff. Take it all with a grain of salt.

*I'm talking personal use quantities. I'd like to hope no-one here would be driving 20 pounds of grass around in their backseat.
**Asking the officer in the middle of a fight or other situation requiring his attention is a bad idea. Wait until things are quiet. If he asks you to wait, he has a reason.
***I've been searched two or three times in the past 5 years, and -every- time I've let the officer know about my swiss army knife. CYA, as it were.

Wintermute · Post by **Wintermute** » Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:30 pm

~~[quote="smartmonkey"]~~
-If the cop asks you a question, answer truthfully. If you have pot* in the car, own up to it. The dick-quotient of a cop goes -way- up when they discover you've been lying to them.[/quote]

This is the only one I disagree with. Never incriminate yourself. If you were going 80 in a 65 and the cops asks how fast you were going, telling him the truth, you just incriminated yourself. "I don't know" is an okay answer. "With the flow of traffic" or "at a speed safe for the road conditions per California's basic speed law" are better answers. Unless a cop has caught you smoking, I see no reason to volunteer the information that you have illicit substances on you, even if directly asked. I'd also recommend watching ~~[url=http://youtube.com/watch?v=3NmC5wHfCdM]~~BUSTED - The Citizen's Guide to Surviving Police Encounters[/url]. Created by retired ACLU director Ira Glasser, it's a good overview of how to stand up for your rights when dealing with the police.

smartmonkey · Post by **smartmonkey** » Thu Nov 23, 2006 9:06 pm

That point assumed that the cop was already asking you to step out of the vehicle in preparation for a search. Like I said, grain of salt.

EDIT:

Also: w00t for the ACLU/Flex Your Rights.

Neuro · Post by **Neuro** » Sat Nov 25, 2006 8:56 pm

~~[quote="smartmonkey"]~~That point assumed that the cop was already asking you to step out of the vehicle in preparation for a search. Like I said, grain of salt.

EDIT:

Also: w00t for the ACLU/Flex Your Rights.[/quote]

If the cop is asking you if you have pot, then he doesn't already have enough information to search you. Don't consent to a search. Keep your mouth shut.

Skyman · Post by **Skyman** » Sat Nov 25, 2006 9:37 pm

"Your honor I felt I had probable cause when I detected the smell of pot emanating from the car."

smartmonkey · Post by **smartmonkey** » Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:21 pm

Truth, Neuro. After a bit of consideration, I've realized I was basing that point on a hypothetical - that is, the cop has strong reason to suspect marijuana use, that there is currently marijuana concealed somewhere in the passenger area (-not- on someones person), and that he has probable cause - which, as Skyman has pointed out, isn't that hard for a cop to manufacture if he has a strong suspiscion/isn't worried about violating the citzens rights.

Also: Dealing with cops in anything but a sober state is a bad, bad idea. Avoid it. Drink/smoke at home.