[quote="Lowly Uhlan"]But you also have to realize that you're powerless over other peoples actions. [/quote]
I'm not sure I agree with this, though much of the post I *do* agree with. I think we have a great deal of power over other people's actions. You can make them feel wanted or unwanted, especially in small groups.
Why didn't we play Conan at my place? Because that meant Mark would be there. Because then, if he showed up in a shirt like that, there would be a throw down. I feel my property is my space (okay, technically the banks, but nevermind) But in my space, I can tell him whatever the hell I want, when I want, and if he doesn't like it, he can leave.
I mean, wasn't it bad enough I called him "Conan the vagina" the first time we played? How un-subtle can you get? :)
It's important to remember that not everyone is so outspoken and confrontational as us. It's just a different way of being, likely no better or worse. Hell, we've known people who were afraid to speak up enough to send back food when their order was messed up. It doesn't sound like they condoned the shirt, they just didn't make a huge issue out of it (which, by wearing the shirt, he was likely inviting).[/quote]
See, that's my point. In some ways, people who wear things like that *want* to be confronted. It seems like it makes them feel like they did something that day or really stand for something. "Look at me! Look at me!"
"No, I won't look at you. I look through you, and let you witness how fun it is when you're trying to be a fuckwad. You're not going to get your grandstanding tonight. You get to go home and jerk off over the cover of the roleplaying game that *no one wants to play*, and, if I get any say over it, [i]that will be the rest of your sad, senseless, spineless, craven little nebbish life[/i] "
[quote="BreakfastOfChampions"][quote:672a44fdb1="Lowly Uhlan"]But you also have to realize that you're powerless over other peoples actions. [/quote]
I'm not sure I agree with this, though much of the post I *do* agree with. I think we have a great deal of power over other people's actions. You can make them feel wanted or unwanted, especially in small groups.
Why didn't we play Conan at my place? Because that meant Mark would be there. Because then, if he showed up in a shirt like that, there would be a throw down. I feel my property is my space (okay, technically the banks, but nevermind) But in my space, I can tell him whatever the hell I want, when I want, and if he doesn't like it, he can leave.
I mean, wasn't it bad enough I called him "Conan the vagina" the first time we played? How un-subtle can you get? :)[/quote:672a44fdb1]
Your breakfast sense serves you well. When I meant I'm powerless I
meant that I probably can't change his opinion. I am more than capable of being an asshole and making people uncomfortable. I don't even try to use sublety when I do stuff like that. He didn't piss me off personally is all. I wouldn't let that guy in my house either.
Conversely, Slayer never did any concerts with Christian rockers, Stryper.
(Kerry King stated:)"I would have been too worried that our fans would have killed their fans...and them."
[quote="BreakfastOfChampions"]Okay, I'm not here to be your thought police. I'm slightly perturbed by the whole "Why didn't anyone say anything" position, and I hope I don't come off too pissy because I just might be misreading it.[/quote]
Be as pissy as you like, I'm not going to be offended ]To be honest, the shirt bugged me, but I'm not going to shout it out at the top of my lungs, for a variety of reasons:
1) Its my issue, and I don't necessarily share.
2) I realize I'm inconsistant, but generally, if I've got a problem with someone's behavior, I will discuss it with those who were part of the behavior and the person participating the behavior. I'm not going to post on the boards about Mark being a racist prick. I think I bitched about a gaming group once, and left out the names.
So unless he's an axe murderer, I'm going to let you guys make your own adult decisions.[/quote]
Frankly, I'm nosy. And sometimes gossipy. Don't read too much into my original, "OMG, why doesn't anyone tell me these things??" I didn't mean it like you took it.
[quote="BreakfastOfChampions"]3) I didn't confront Mark about it for the following reasons:
a) Its LU's game. I'm not going to wreck it over a fuckward
b) I figured Mark wanted a confrontation over it. Most people like that do. So, I thought, I'll take his toy away from him, and not give him one. People like that hate -- no are afraid of being inconsequential. It gives me grim satisfaction to do make them so.
b) In addition to wanting the same old arguments, I figured he'd already heard them all. I used what I got. Mark was *excluded*. He was excluded from my conversations, he was excluded from my game invites. Shit, I think I even did a coffee run and asked everyone *but* him if they wanted anything. I happily contributed to him being the turd in the corner no one wanted to sniff. The rest he did himself by being a shitty gamer.
c) I think this was like my third meeting of most of the other people. I didn't know where they stood, and I figured I'd tacitly find out later. Again, not worth disturbing a game for idiot boy. I figure for one game I can sit down at a table with Adolph Hitler and be civil. Pity him if he ever needs a job from me.[/quote]
As for say something when you see something wrong - You didn't do nothing. You did something perfectly appropriate. Sounds like you almost went out of your way to make clear that he was a nonentity in your book. You did something civilly. That's probably because you're good at being civil. It's not really my strong point. Our methods are different. I don't have that kind of patience or grace, myself. I think people who seek conflict absolutely deserve to find it.
[quote="BreakfastOfChampions"]I don't tell cat piss man to take a shower. I just don't game with them. I figure that most well-adjusted people know when to shower, and for the most part, I've been right.
So maybe I'm jumping on the wrong statement, but I just don't see where its my place to go telling tales about people who piss me off. Frankly, I think I bitch too much as is :)[/quote]
Of course you don't. See above. And, for the record, I don't think you bitch too much, either. Or, if you're bitching, you at least have things like concrete points and well thought out opinions.
"I need no mask to speak with you. Unlike my brother. I create my own personality. Personality is my medium."
[quote="Wintermute"][quote:859af17702="BreakfastOfChampions"]See, that's my point. In some ways, people who wear things like that *want* to be confronted. [/quote]
That's when you give 'em 5 across the eyes. They usually don't want much more confrontation after that. Keep ya pimp hand strong.[/quote:859af17702]
see!? I need more underworld contacts. Anyone know where I can get the PimpHand of Glory? ;)
It's important to remember that not everyone is so outspoken and confrontational as us. It's just a different way of being, likely no better or worse. Hell, we've known people who were afraid to speak up enough to send back food when their order was messed up. It doesn't sound like they condoned the shirt, they just didn't make a huge issue out of it (which, by wearing the shirt, he was likely inviting).[/quote]
See, that's my point. In some ways, people who wear things like that *want* to be confronted. It seems like it makes them feel like they did something that day or really stand for something. "Look at me! Look at me!"
"No, I won't look at you. I look through you, and let you witness how fun it is when you're trying to be a fuckwad. You're not going to get your grandstanding tonight. You get to go home and jerk off over the cover of the roleplaying game that *no one wants to play*, and, if I get any say over it, [i]that will be the rest of your sad, senseless, spineless, craven little nebbish life[/i] "
Enjoy![/quote:0d3a006826]
I think it was devlin's post that made me say that you should SAY SOMETHING. The elephant no one was talking about, that is. I don't think you should ever sit still and be uncomfortable or unhappy. BoC is comfortable minimizing conflict and maximizing the cold shoulder factor. I do think that the loudmouthed contingent is necessary. Good, solid decency, the likes of which BoC demonstrated, is a perfectly valid tool. I want the loudmouths to speak up, though, wherever they can, because someone probably IS uncomfortable and unhappy and I never think it's okay to let one asshole make other people unhappy. Pretty much every time I open my mouth to say something confrontational, I find that I wasn't the only one having the thought.
"I need no mask to speak with you. Unlike my brother. I create my own personality. Personality is my medium."
It's important to remember that not everyone is so outspoken and confrontational as us. It's just a different way of being, likely no better or worse. Hell, we've known people who were afraid to speak up enough to send back food when their order was messed up. It doesn't sound like they condoned the shirt, they just didn't make a huge issue out of it (which, by wearing the shirt, he was likely inviting).[/quote]
See, that's my point. In some ways, people who wear things like that *want* to be confronted. It seems like it makes them feel like they did something that day or really stand for something. "Look at me! Look at me!"
"No, I won't look at you. I look through you, and let you witness how fun it is when you're trying to be a fuckwad. You're not going to get your grandstanding tonight. You get to go home and jerk off over the cover of the roleplaying game that *no one wants to play*, and, if I get any say over it, [i]that will be the rest of your sad, senseless, spineless, craven little nebbish life[/i] "
Enjoy![/quote:3da3b916ca]
I think it was devlin's post that made me say that you should SAY SOMETHING. The elephant no one was talking about, that is. I don't think you should ever sit still and be uncomfortable or unhappy. BoC is comfortable minimizing conflict and maximizing the cold shoulder factor. I do think that the loudmouthed contingent is necessary. Good, solid decency, the likes of which BoC demonstrated, is a perfectly valid tool. I want the loudmouths to speak up, though, wherever they can, because someone probably IS uncomfortable and unhappy and I never think it's okay to let one asshole make other people unhappy. Pretty much every time I open my mouth to say something confrontational, I find that I wasn't the only one having the thought.[/quote:3da3b916ca]
I agree that the loudmouth factor is not to be denied, and has its place. Its a good tool to have when the cold shoulder doesn't work, or the situation warrents it.
I agree that the loudmouth factor is not to be denied, and has its place. Its a good tool to have when the cold shoulder doesn't work, or the situation warrents it.[/quote]
I also apply it when it's inappropriate. We also do birthdays and company functions ;)
"I need no mask to speak with you. Unlike my brother. I create my own personality. Personality is my medium."
[quote="Wintermute"][quote:d5cb1faaf5="Neuro"]No, if I'd married you for that, I'd have asked to be an elf.
I hate it when people ask me that.[/quote]
I'm just glad you haven't taught the AoDers how to torture me, yet. I remember one time you guys damn near drove me out of the house with it.[/quote:d5cb1faaf5]
I don't remember what you're talking about, but I bet you started it.
"I need no mask to speak with you. Unlike my brother. I create my own personality. Personality is my medium."
[quote="Wintermute"][quote:a32435ff25="Neuro"]I don't remember what you're talking about, but I bet you started it.[/quote]
"I wanna play an elf!"
"I wanna be a ninja!"
"Can I play a priest who kicks people's asses?"
"I grew up in a temple training to kill the people who murdered my parents."
*shudder*[/quote:a32435ff25]
Bear in mind that many of the AoDers read the posts...hmmm...
Regarding the MtA dealie...perhaps we could have had Matsu "instruct" him...LOL
Some people are like Slinkies ... Not really good for anything...... But they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs.
Now that this forum has been totally trounced...I'll put my two cents in.
Back in the early 70's (Oh my god, here he goes again...I thought I would just beat you to it dev), I was sitting in a coffee shop (no, they didn't specialize in 200 varieties of coffee, they were cafe's back then) enjoying a meal, when a very large man walks by me and my date wearing a t-shirt that said, "Let's ship all of the Jungle Bunnies back to where they belong! Without a boat!" Most of the people who saw this just shook their heads and went back to eating. He then sat at the counter and ordered coffee (regular, not de-caf...the only choices). Within a few minutes, I started hearing him talk to people about how the sambos over in Vietnam were responsible for almost every white man's death over there either through cowardice or by design. This vitriol continued, just loud enough to be heard by most of the rest of the place. After about twenty minutes, I asked for my check, walked over to the precursor of modern day skinheads and loudly denounced everything he was saying. Looked him in the eye, told him that he was the only scum around and left. I went outside and started shaking (had dev been around I could have borrowed a depends). My date told me I was crazy to speak up and to take her home. I did and was glad to never see her again. Those who see injustice and say nothing....
Ok, that was more then I started out to say...sorry for coming off so preachy!
A writer is congenitally unable to tell the truth and that is why we call what he writes fiction. – William Faulkner
I had a simmilar experience to Opwonder's on the trolly once. There was this black man, talking to his son, telling him how bad white people were (he even said we were all criminals). Now, I'm not an in your face kind of person (I leave that to my girlfriend ;) ), but I felt compelled to denounce this guy. And I didn't have a front door I could just leave, this was a moving trolly. So, I understand, I was shaking when I got off as well (out of fear, anger, lots of stuff).
This one time, when I was at a Journey concert at the Sports Arena, a guy a few rows in front of me threw an M80 over the balcony railing. When it blew, it made an incredibly large BOOM, and the entire crowd at the arena was quiet for a few seconds.
Around 10 or 15 minutes later, staff security came rummaging around trying to find the culprit. Everyone around me knew who threw it. We all knew. But no-one said anything. Except me. I ratted him out.
After they led the guy out, I got a few "good job" remarks from the folks around me. And spent the entire rest of the concert scared witless that the M80 throwing goon's friends would figure out I was the one who ratted.
Okay, not the same thing as speaking out against racism. But it's all I got.
Hey man, I'm slinging volume and fat stacking benjies, you know what I mean? I can't be all about spelling and shit!
Just remember, the next time you hear someone say, "I hate <insert racial/religious/whatever group here>." Just think to yourself, "What would Neuro say?"
Then open your mouth and say, "What's the matter. Did your mother fuck one?"
"I need no mask to speak with you. Unlike my brother. I create my own personality. Personality is my medium."
[quote="Neuro"]Just remember, the next time you hear someone say, "I hate <]
Girl, my watch just stopped tickin'! And when I say girl, I mean it in all of the best ways. You would have fit right in with the rest of my friends back when I was in college. Hell, you would probably been the pres of the SDS! 8)
A writer is congenitally unable to tell the truth and that is why we call what he writes fiction. – William Faulkner
Neuro. Thank you. I think thats the best line I've ever heard for that sort of conversation.
And yeah, I prefaced most of my remarks re: MtA with "remember that guy wearing the 'fuck islam' shirt? yeah, he plays columbo the barbarian..." So you can't blame me. You -were- pretty trashed though.
I almost got stabbed by a neo-nazi type after pulling him off some kid at Vons. Then I told him I was Jewish, while he was handcuffed. Hillarity ensued.
[quote="smartmonkey"]Then I told him I was Jewish, while he was handcuffed. Hillarity ensued.[/quote] Sweet! :lol:
Daniel
When a cat is dropped, it always lands on its feet, and when toast is dropped, it always lands with the buttered side facing down. I propose to strap buttered toast to the back of a cat. The two will hover, spinning inches above the ground. With a giant buttered cat array, a high-speed monorail could easily link New York with Chicago.
[quote="smartmonkey"]Neuro. Thank you. I think thats the best line I've ever heard for that sort of conversation.
And yeah, I prefaced most of my remarks re: MtA with "remember that guy wearing the 'fuck islam' shirt? yeah, he plays columbo the barbarian..." So you can't blame me. You -were- pretty trashed though.
I almost got stabbed by a neo-nazi type after pulling him off some kid at Vons. Then I told him I was Jewish, while he was handcuffed. Hillarity ensued.[/quote]
Nonono, you NEED to back up and tell that story. It's a really great story. You know, I do remember you mentioning it now, I just couldn't figure out who the hell you were talking about at the time.
"I need no mask to speak with you. Unlike my brother. I create my own personality. Personality is my medium."
[quote="Neuro"][quote:18d7436ab7="smartmonkey"]Neuro. Thank you. I think thats the best line I've ever heard for that sort of conversation.
And yeah, I prefaced most of my remarks re: MtA with "remember that guy wearing the 'fuck islam' shirt? yeah, he plays columbo the barbarian..." So you can't blame me. You -were- pretty trashed though.
I almost got stabbed by a neo-nazi type after pulling him off some kid at Vons. Then I told him I was Jewish, while he was handcuffed. Hillarity ensued.[/quote]
Nonono, you NEED to back up and tell that story. It's a really great story. You know, I do remember you mentioning it now, I just couldn't figure out who the hell you were talking about at the time.[/quote:18d7436ab7]
I agree, that is a great story and it MUST be told!
Some people are like Slinkies ... Not really good for anything...... But they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs.
[quote="opwunder"]Back in the early 70's (Oh my god, here he goes again...I thought I would just beat you to it dev)
(had dev been around I could have borrowed a depends). [/quote] Why the sick obsession with me?
Apropos of the topic:
I admit it-- when I saw Mark wearing that shirt, I said, "Dude, that's an [i]awesome [/i]shirt," then spent the rest of the evening high-fiving with him and shouting "Yeah!"
Mike Olson "In this economy, it's not easy to feed a growing family. So we eat Haunkkah gelt for dinner and look at a picture of broccoli." --Paul F. Tompkins Spirit of the Blank: A blog. Roll Some Dice: Another blog.
[quote]Nonono, you NEED to back up and tell that story. It's a really great story[/quote] [quote]I agree, that is a great story and it MUST be told![/quote]
Well, I guess I will then.
This was in my first few weeks at Vons. I work at the one in Lakeside. For those of you that don't know, Lakeside is the home of a white supremicist gang that calls themselves the Peckerwoods. Not the brightest boys on the block, really.
So anyways, I'd just finished slicing some roast beef for this little old lady, when I see this hispanic kid - probably around 15 or so - bump into skinny white trash guy - it looked accidental from where I was standing. SWTG flips out, shoves the kid, and proceeds to administer several kicks while the kid is down.
Then I'm moving. I grab SWTG, and kinda throw him by the shoulders. He doesn't fall down, but he does bang his knee. He turns around, says something along the lines of "What the fuck, motherfucker?" at the top of his lungs, and reaches into his shirt. At which point I think "Oh fuck, homeboy has a gun/knife, I'm dead."
Fortunately, a pair of fellas from the Meat Department slam into the guy like a pair of freight trains going downhill. In one frame, SWTG is reaching in his shirt, in the next, he's gone.
We hold him down, place him under citizens arrest. Cops show up. He wants to press charges on me for laying hands on him, as well as the guys from the meat department. Cop that shows is by the book type, and we all end up handcuffed. At this point, SWTG says something along the lines of "Hey man, we're brothers." I.E, he was appealing to my whitness, overall. So I told him I was Jewish.
He was frothing at the mouth by the time the seargent arrived. Me and the meat guys get uncuffed, put in statements, and attempt to go back to work.
Then the store manager catches up with us. Apparently, store policy is to -not- interfere with assbeatings, but to call the cops and straigten up afterwards. I'm put on probation. I'm still on probation.
The kid was allright, last I heard. Paramedics transported him, just in case, cos he'd been kicked in the head.
SWTG has several outstanding speeding ticket warrants, and was wanted for questioning regarding a liquor store robbery.
[quote="smartmonkey"]Then the store manager catches up with us. Apparently, store policy is to -not- interfere with assbeatings, but to call the cops and straigten up afterwards. I'm put on probation. I'm still on probation. [/quote]
Well, most people would have just stood there and watched it happen without lifting a finger. You, instead, did the right thing. Your karma must be gargantuan! You made humanity proud, if not Vons, that day!
A writer is congenitally unable to tell the truth and that is why we call what he writes fiction. – William Faulkner
[quote="opwunder"][quote:db83f5ea48="smartmonkey"]Then the store manager catches up with us. Apparently, store policy is to -not- interfere with assbeatings, but to call the cops and straigten up afterwards. I'm put on probation. I'm still on probation. [/quote]
Well, most people would have just stood there and watched it happen without lifting a finger. You, instead, did the right thing. Your karma must be gargantuan! You made humanity proud, if not Vons, that day![/quote:db83f5ea48]
Yeah, Vons showed their appreciation by putting him on probation. And karma balanced out by having him get mugged :twisted:
[quote="cczernia"][quote:2616cd0662="opwunder"][quote:2616cd0662="smartmonkey"]Then the store manager catches up with us. Apparently, store policy is to -not- interfere with assbeatings, but to call the cops and straigten up afterwards. I'm put on probation. I'm still on probation. [/quote]
Well, most people would have just stood there and watched it happen without lifting a finger. You, instead, did the right thing. Your karma must be gargantuan! You made humanity proud, if not Vons, that day![/quote:2616cd0662]
Yeah, Vons showed their appreciation by putting him on probation. And karma balanced out by having him get mugged :twisted:[/quote:2616cd0662]
So, you're saying that he shouldn't have done anything? He should have just stood and let this asshole kick the kid? Is that what you would have done?
A writer is congenitally unable to tell the truth and that is why we call what he writes fiction. – William Faulkner
Mike Olson "In this economy, it's not easy to feed a growing family. So we eat Haunkkah gelt for dinner and look at a picture of broccoli." --Paul F. Tompkins Spirit of the Blank: A blog. Roll Some Dice: Another blog.
I think what he's saying is that sometimes doing the right thing is hard, AND unrewarding. Such is fate. But, someday, probably when he least expects it, it will come around. THAT is Karma. :D
"Don't do that! I peed a little." - Cthulhu after Infernus made an impressive Intimidate roll.
And that people should choose to do the right thing because it's the right thing, not because they expect to be repaid or rewarded (not even by the Universe). The only reward is that in the end, you are a better person for having lived well.
Mike Olson "In this economy, it's not easy to feed a growing family. So we eat Haunkkah gelt for dinner and look at a picture of broccoli." --Paul F. Tompkins Spirit of the Blank: A blog. Roll Some Dice: Another blog.
[quote="devlin1"]And that people should choose to do the right thing because it's the right thing, not because they expect to be repaid or rewarded (not even by the Universe). The only reward is that in the end, you are a better person for having lived well.[/quote]
Word.
Good on ya , SM. You have moved up a notch on my Respecto-meter. You are now just above IRS agents. :D
Just playin. ;)
"Don't do that! I peed a little." - Cthulhu after Infernus made an impressive Intimidate roll.
[quote="Gotetsu"]I think what he's saying is that sometimes doing the right thing is hard, AND unrewarding. Such is fate. But, someday, probably when he least expects it, it will come around. THAT is Karma. :D[/quote]
That is what I'm saying. But it is SM's way to do the right thing then to get screwed :wink:
While I do believe in Karma, my praise was based on SM's laudable actions. Actions that, it seemed to me, cczernia was saying he shouldn't have done because of the consequences. If I missunderstood, I appologise.
SM, in my book you're even higher then divorce lawyers now!!!
A writer is congenitally unable to tell the truth and that is why we call what he writes fiction. – William Faulkner
