Those crazy right wingers in Norway

Nuke an unborn gay whale... for Jesus!
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Skyman
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Those crazy right wingers in Norway

Post by Skyman » Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:48 pm

I don't know why I think CZ will groove with these conservatives

OK from the people that brought us the Vikings and Thor...Norway scares me
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Post by Count Zero » Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:54 pm

Nutty..... I often wonder if you give people the basics of life, then you get a more civil society.

I have always found it ironic that religious conservatives in this nation decry evolution as evil, but then latch on to "survival of the fitest" as a way to run a society.
Whenever I get confused about D&D alignment morality, I just imagine Abraham Lincoln and Mahatma Ghandi arm wrestling shirtless on the back of a killer whale.

In other words, I remember that it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense and deal with it best I can.

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Post by Dragonkin » Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:34 am

Count Zero wrote:Nutty..... I often wonder if you give people the basics of life, then you get a more civil society.


It makes sense. If you don't have to struggle just to survive, you should be less prone to violence or extreme behavior.

Count Zero wrote:I have always found it ironic that religious conservatives in this nation decry evolution as evil, but then latch on to "survival of the fitest" as a way to run a society.


I always find the concept of social Darwinism to be a misnomer, myself. When they say "fittest," what they really mean is "richest," and that offends my sensibilities. I have to laugh derisively when the top 10% complain about their 33% tax burden. As a single man with no dependents (obviously before I was married) I was paying 21% of my income to state and federal income taxes. The majority of that (obviously) was federal. And I'm not even including SS and Medicare in that figure.

Sorry. Mini-rant.
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Post by Count Zero » Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:20 pm

Dragonkin wrote:II always find the concept of social Darwinism to be a misnomer, myself. When they say "fittest," what they really mean is "richest," and that offends my sensibilities. I have to laugh derisively when the top 10% complain about their 33% tax burden. As a single man with no dependents (obviously before I was married) I was paying 21% of my income to state and federal income taxes. The majority of that (obviously) was federal. And I'm not even including SS and Medicare in that figure.


I don't disagree with you. 21% of our income has a much greater impact on us, then 33% does on somebody who is in the top 10%.
Whenever I get confused about D&D alignment morality, I just imagine Abraham Lincoln and Mahatma Ghandi arm wrestling shirtless on the back of a killer whale.

In other words, I remember that it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense and deal with it best I can.

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Post by Neuro » Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:22 pm

That makes me feel a little better.

I had a bad moment in the desert this last couple days. They've got half-barrels marked 'AGUA' left for migrants risking the crossing through the desert. So, just in case it might save someone's life, some fuckers had shot through the sealed water bottles.

I'm a little tired of the human race, this minute.
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Post by Skyman » Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:37 pm

Yeah I hear ya.
Glad Norway could get a smile
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Post by Neuro » Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:38 pm

http://www.humaneborders.org/index.html

I could find this for Arizona, but I don't know about California and am not finding much.
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Post by Skyman » Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:54 pm

That is such a cool idea...too bad a person has to be a poo poo head and be mean
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Post by Neuro » Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:03 pm

How are we supposed to even deal with the notion of these people on the planet? I don't like the idea of an us vs. them kind of conflict, but that's sort of how it feels. The masses of ignorant fuckheads willing to kill people versus the people who want people not to die uselessly. Is there a way to resolve that conflict that doesn't leave you sick about people? Especially in the face of whole cultures that seem to act... much better?
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Post by Dragonkin » Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:09 pm

Neuro wrote:How are we supposed to even deal with the notion of these people on the planet? I don't like the idea of an us vs. them kind of conflict, but that's sort of how it feels. The masses of ignorant fuckheads willing to kill people versus the people who want people not to die uselessly. Is there a way to resolve that conflict that doesn't leave you sick about people? Especially in the face of whole cultures that seem to act... much better?


You watch Dr. Phil alot, I'm assuming.
[mini-rant]
I agree that there's way too much needless bloodshed, especially here in the US. Unfortunately, that's not ending. People aren't going to change just because their views are ignorant, because they believe them, and as we know, belief is one of the most difficult things to get people to change.

Avenue Q has it right in dozens of little ways, like "Everyone's A Little Bit Racist." We are! Black, white, Hispanic . . . it doesn't matter. We all laugh at stereotypes and exaggerations because they're funny! The same applies to any cultural difference. The problem lies with those who believe the exaggerations.
[/mini-rant]
BTW, I watch Dr. Phil alot. Long live the man-traitor!
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Post by Neuro » Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:32 pm

Uh, no. I don't watch Dr. Phil.
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Post by Dragonkin » Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:04 pm

Geez. Can nobody take a joke? :razz:
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Post by Neuro » Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:47 pm

I guess I just disagree that you can't stop bloodshed and think that the fatalism isn't helping, either. Our culture's become more, not less peaceful. Other cultures where resource is abundant are doing the same.
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Post by Count Zero » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:20 pm

Neuro wrote:I guess I just disagree that you can't stop bloodshed and think that the fatalism isn't helping, either. Our culture's become more, not less peaceful. Other cultures where resource is abundant are doing the same.


I think if we really want to achieve a peaceful world, the traditional rich Western World is going to have to sacrifice a little luxury so the poor of the world can have their necessities.

I recently read an article where 30 billion of the insane amount of money spent on the Iraq War could end poverty on this planet by 2015. I exoect that if we ended poverty and suffering on this planet, then maybe we wouldn't have to worry about fighting terrorism. Poverty and suffering tend to be breeding grounds for terrorist activity. Most wars are over resources, so if we more equally distributed the world's resources, then war might become a very rare thing.
Whenever I get confused about D&D alignment morality, I just imagine Abraham Lincoln and Mahatma Ghandi arm wrestling shirtless on the back of a killer whale.

In other words, I remember that it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense and deal with it best I can.

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Post by Neuro » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:32 pm

I don't buy that, either.

What we see, if we look, is that capitalism works. Communism, while great in theory, doesn't actually seem to have a good run of things in practice and that's really what you're talking about.

I also think 30bn's a bit (lot) low, it assumes a kind of political acquiescence in places where that's just not the case. Remember that in many cases, the problem isn't in getting aid places, it's in overcoming regimes that don't have the people's interests in mind.

Capitalism in its western form won't work everywhere (Africa), either, but neither does handing people stuff, either.
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Post by Dragonkin » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:39 pm

Communism, as intended, is possible. The problem is most people immediately assume communism = Soviet Russia, which was a corrupt socialist state. The way I understand communism is the way that Amish communities work. Everyone in the community, while still an individual, has a stake in the health of the community as a whole.

That said, communism cannot be an economic model. Capitalism is, by and large, the best economic model available, so long as checks and balances are maintained, meaning the prevention of monopolies and equal opportunity for small business. No competition is very bad for capitalism.

As far as bloodshed is concerned, I honestly don't see any abatement as Neuro alluded to. While I think a good portion of said bloodshed is preventable, there's no possible way to completely eradicate it. As K stated, "A person is smart. People are stupid, panicky animals . . . ." Sad, but true.
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Post by Count Zero » Wed Nov 28, 2007 6:35 pm

Neuro wrote:I don't buy that, either.

What we see, if we look, is that capitalism works. Communism, while great in theory, doesn't actually seem to have a good run of things in practice and that's really what you're talking about.


Why does sacrifice by the rich always seem to equal communism in our culture? I have never understood that jump in logic. It isn't at all.

We pay taxes to provide social programs. We're willing give up additional money because we realize that it makes our overall lives better. We tax the rich more because we believe they can afford to give up some of their income. We take away a bit of their luxury to make our lives and society better. Why is that so hard for us to make the jump financially to the rest of the world?

The U.S. spends more on the military than the top 5 countries combined. If we took 10 - 20% of our military budget and invested it in the developing world, I think we would eliminate much of the need for that military we are paying for. In addition, we would have new markets for our companies to sell their products.

It isn't communism at all, and it is lazy to just dismiss the idea of given a little bit of luxury up in order to improve our way of life. Sacrifice does not equal communism.

Also, it isn't just dumping money on the problem. I find it interesting that the dismissive argument is always that we "can't just dump money into it." I have never heard that discussed as an option. NGO's are very effective with the funding they recieve, they just don't get enough of it.
Whenever I get confused about D&D alignment morality, I just imagine Abraham Lincoln and Mahatma Ghandi arm wrestling shirtless on the back of a killer whale.

In other words, I remember that it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense and deal with it best I can.

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Post by Skyman » Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:42 pm

If you want peace work for justice


That is if you believe in peace. the saying seems appropriate toward the issues with the water barrel
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Post by Neuro » Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:28 am

The water barrel people here only do their thing until October and won't start again until early next year - just the hottest months, evidently. I found them.

More later - the person who started it is an irony unto himself.
"I need no mask to speak with you. Unlike my brother. I create my own personality. Personality is my medium."

--Neuromancer, William Gibson

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