What the hell?

[Count Zero]

http://www.examiner.com/a-706365~Police ... Rally.html

I heard about this on NPR this morning. Does anyone know more about this. It sounds just insane.

[devlin1]

Just today you heard about this? I've been hearing about this on NPR since Tuesday or Wednesday.

Short story: LAPD was ready for shit to go down (see: '92 LA Riots), tried to direct protestor traffic to a specific area using motorcycle cops, some protestors started throwing cans and bottles and shit, then the riot police swarmed the area and started in with the rubber bullets and tear gas and journalist-beating.

I don't think the protestors should have exacerbated the situation like that, but obviously the LAPD shouldn't have gone sickhouse on their asses, either. However, I'm not especially surprised they did. Illegal aliens protesting the fact that they don't have the same rights as legal immigrants? I'm sure there are quite a few of those cops who would've wanted to tear gas them for that alone. Throw in some projectiles, and riot police are bound to make an appearance--with extreme prejudice.

[Count Zero]

[quote="devlin1"]Just [i]today[/i] you heard about this? I've been hearing about this on NPR since Tuesday or Wednesday.[/quote]


I haven't had access to news recently, so yeah.. I just heard about it. I don't get to listen to NPR as often as I would like


[quote]
Short story: LAPD was ready for shit to go down (see: '92 LA Riots), tried to direct protestor traffic to a specific area using motorcycle cops, some protestors started throwing cans and bottles and shit, then the riot police swarmed the area and started in with the rubber bullets and tear gas and journalist-beating.



I don't think the protestors should have exacerbated the situation like that, but obviously the LAPD shouldn't have gone sickhouse on their asses, either. However, I'm not especially surprised they did. Illegal aliens protesting the fact that they don't have the same rights as legal immigrants? I'm sure there are quite a few of those cops who would've wanted to tear gas them for that alone. Throw in some projectiles, and riot police are bound to make an appearance--[i]with extreme prejudice[/i].[/quote]


Directing protestors with motorcycles? That seems safe. I have heard about this sort of stuff before. Apparently, in New York during the Republican convention, the cops were driving through crowds (often without any identification) and endangering people. When people responded, the cops moved in and arrested them all. I wonder if this is something similar or there were just some pricks in the crowd.



General common sense rule, don't fuck with the cops though, but generally, Cops aren't suppose to fuck with you first. It sounds like an over reaction. Why not just arrest the people throwning bottles and be done with it?



Characterizing them all as illegal aliens is rather inaccurate from what I understand.

[devlin1]

[quote="Count Zero"]Directing protestors with motorcycles? That seems safe. [/quote]
Actually, from what I heard, it was: They formed a static line of motorcycles blocking off access to a street, thus directing the protestors towards an area where speeches were being made, etc. The cops revved their engines, without moving, to emphasize the point. Then someone started in with the bottles and cans.


[quote]It sounds like an over reaction. Why not just arrest the people throwning bottles and be done with it?[/quote]
Oh, it's definitely an over-reaction. I just think they were spoiling for a fight and looking for an excuse. How about when they knocked that reporter to the ground? Or when they did the same to a cameraman (and his camera)? It sounds like they were out of control, IMO.


[quote]Characterizing them all as illegal aliens is rather inaccurate from what I understand.[/quote]
I'm sure it is inaccurate, but whether the protestors were legal or not (although I'm betting quite a few of them weren't), they were protesting on behalf of, and to promote the rights of, illegal immigrants. The general perception is bound to be that most of the protestors themselves are illegal.

[Count Zero]

Someone reving their engine is sort of a threat. Being polite does wonders even with large groups. You can get them do things if you just ask. All they really needed were the cops asking people to stay out of the street on bull horns and they probably wouldn't have had to tear gas people. Maybe arrest a few individuals. I think you are right, they were spoiling for a fight.


[quote="devlin1"]I'm sure it is inaccurate, but whether the protestors were legal or not (although I'm betting quite a few of them weren't), they were protesting on behalf of, and to promote the rights of, illegal immigrants. The general perception is bound to be that most of the protestors themselves are illegal.[/quote]


Being legal doesn't really matter when you get down to it, if they are within our borders they are entitled to protection under our laws and constitution. The constitution says nothing about being a citizen for those rights. The police were probably more than happy to be rough with them because they figured no one would care. I just keep trying to figure out what the hell is the matter with the LAPD.

[devlin1]

[quote="Count Zero"]Being legal doesn't really matter when you get down to it, if they are within our borders they are entitled to protection under our laws and constitution. The constitution says nothing about being a citizen for those rights. [/quote]
There are a lot of people out there who don't think illegal immigrants should have any rights at all. I'm just sayin'. They consider that to be an oversight of the Constitution, and a consequence of globalization that the Founding Fathers couldn't have foreseen (and therefore didn't make allowance for).


[quote]The police were probably more than happy to be rough with them because they figured no one would care. I just keep trying to figure out what the hell is the matter with the LAPD.[/quote]
I just think they're like the average person. If you give the average person a weapon and some authority, they're bound to abuse it eventually. I can't remember the details of that study that was done involving college students playing the roles of prisoners and guards, but... y'know, it's like that.

[Skyman]

[quote="devlin1"]
I just think they're like the average person. If you give the average person a weapon and some authority, they're bound to abuse it eventually. [b] I can't remember the details of that study that was done involving college students playing the roles of prisoners and guards, bu[/b]t... y'know, it's like that.[/quote]

It was called the Zimbardo experiment in Stanford. That fucker is getting on my nerves. This is like the thrid week straight some one had made references to that damn study or him.

It was a pretty fucked up experiment where the subjects were really messed with. They even tried a prison break half way through and Zimbardo stood guard in the hall way. It was held in the basement and everyone involved understood what this was about. Subjects were stripped of identity and treat like prisoners. The guard may have been graduate students or subjests themselves(I can't remember this was like almost 2 decades ago when I was forced to read it) but they acted like major dicks with authority.



BTW: Protest rallys are pretty fun. My experience has been pretty cool with them. Have you guys done many?

[To Peace]

[quote="Count Zero"]Someone reving their engine is sort of a threat. Being polite does wonders even with large groups. You can get them do things if you just ask. All they really needed were the cops asking people to stay out of the street on bull horns and they probably wouldn't have had to tear gas people. Maybe arrest a few individuals. I think you are right, they were spoiling for a fight.[/quote]

Perhaps they were frustrated by a large amount of people supporting, and note the primary word, ILLEGAL immigrants. Revving an engine is a crowd control tactic used by a few hundred police personnel ensuring a few THOUSAND people don't get out of line. A bullhorn is easily drown out by a thousand voices. Those many engines are not.



Then, despite the revving, the crowd became unruly, stepping out of the sanctioned demonstration area. Then they got violent by throwing bottles and rocks.



People have already posted that you shouldn't mess with the police and throwing hard objects qualifies as WAY over that line.



The violence doesn't grant carte blanche, but does mean the police should step in to prevent further or escalating violence. The means may seem excessive, taken out of context, but are appropriate when you consider the police routinely act as few to watch over the many.



I've noticed quite a few threads on this board that push against the authority. Just figured I'd paint a picture of the other side.

[To Peace]

[quote="Count Zero"]Someone reving their engine is sort of a threat. Being polite does wonders even with large groups. You can get them do things if you just ask. All they really needed were the cops asking people to stay out of the street on bull horns and they probably wouldn't have had to tear gas people. Maybe arrest a few individuals. I think you are right, they were spoiling for a fight.[/quote]

Perhaps they were frustrated by a large amount of people supporting, and note the primary word, ILLEGAL immigrants. Revving an engine is a crowd control tactic used by a few hundred police personnel ensuring a few THOUSAND people don't get out of line. A bullhorn is easily drown out by a thousand voices. Those many engines are not.



Then, despite the revving, the crowd became unruly, stepping out of the sanctioned demonstration area. Then they got violent by throwing bottles and rocks.



People have already posted that you shouldn't mess with the police and throwing hard objects qualifies as WAY over that line.



The violence doesn't grant carte blanche, but does mean the police should step in to prevent further or escalating violence. The means may seem excessive, taken out of context, but are appropriate when you consider the police routinely act as few to watch over the many.



I've noticed quite a few threads on this board that push against the authority. Just figured I'd paint a picture of the other side.

[Count Zero]

[quote="To Peace"]Perhaps they were frustrated by a large amount of people supporting, and note the primary word, ILLEGAL immigrants. [/quote]

That makes no difference at all. They are police. They are suppose to act better. These are human beings, they aren't some dog we can just kick around. These are people calling for reform. They aren't some monster. Hell, those that aren't citizens are using our rights better than we ever do. Regardless of legality, they are still entitled to the same civil rights we have because they are within our borders.


[quote]
Revving an engine is a crowd control tactic used by a few hundred police personnel ensuring a few THOUSAND people don't get out of line. A bullhorn is easily drown out by a thousand voices. Those many engines are not.



Then, despite the revving, the crowd became unruly, stepping out of the sanctioned demonstration area. Then they got violent by throwing bottles and rocks.



People have already posted that you shouldn't mess with the police and throwing hard objects qualifies as WAY over that line.[/quote]

I don't disagree that throwing bottles at people who are revving engines is over the line, but a select few did that. You arrest the individuals. If you can't find them all, then you arrest the one's you can.



The police state they only arrested one person. That seems sort of strange for such an unruly crowd as it is being made out to be. Something feels off. Generally, I will give the police the benefit of the doubt, but we've already seen the police in another city plant drugs on a 92 year old woman to cover their ass, so color me a little untrusting at this point.



The description from the people who were at the main rally describe it as seeming just out of the blue. Suddenly they were getting beanbags, rubber bullets, and tear gas shot at them. I am more than willing to believe that some people went too far and the police had to act, but it sounds like the police went further than necessary. It's not like the LAPD has a great reputation for showing restraint in the first place.


[quote]
The violence doesn't grant carte blanche, but does mean the police should step in to prevent further or escalating violence. The means may seem excessive, taken out of context, but are appropriate when you consider the police routinely act as few to watch over the many.
[/quote]

In this situation, it really does sound like it was as select few individuals and they punished the group. From what I have read, this wasn't some raging riot that was about to boil over and turn into the Watts riots, it is some punks that threw some rocks. There is appropriate use of force in these kinds of situations, and it seems like they went far over the line.


[quote]I've noticed quite a few threads on this board that push against the authority. Just figured I'd paint a picture of the other side.[/quote]

It is the job of every person in the country to distrust and question authority. In fact, I would be more frightened about this situation if they (i.e. the mayor/city officials) were just blowing it off and saying it was okay.



They beat the hell out of a news crew for god sakes. Good rule of thumb for authority figures, don't touch the media.



I've seen some footage of the police moving in, and lots of people just seemed confused about what was going on. People were literally just standing there.



I did find some footage here and there..



[url=http://gamejew.com/?q=node/67]May Day Immigration Reform Demonstration (with some idiots as added bonus)[/url]



[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guHsEX7lOes]Lone Wolf footage from LA May Day fiasco[/url]



[[url]http://xicanopwr.com/2007/05/may-day-violence-at-los-angeles-macarthur-park/]A[/url] whole collection of videos[/url]

[Dragonkin]

There's plenty of finger-pointing and name-calling going on, but the fact remains that this is the fault of two sides. On the protesters' side, you have a group of individuals (I find it suspect that reports indicate "a few individuals," but make no estimates as to the number) who, in an attempt to act out against authority, used violence as their medium. Now, no one has debated this was wrong, but why, if they had some idea what was happening, didn't the rest of the crowd (who was, by all accounts peacefully protesting) attempt to stop or turn in these individuals? I think that had this happened, the police wouldn't have reacted as harshly as they had.

Now, on the police side, there is no doubt, nor argument that the officers stepped over the line. They over-reacted and as a result, are once again in the public eye as fascist goose-steppers. There's also the real possibility that the entire police department will be on the receiving (and most likely losing) end of several civil suits. The problem is the few against many mentality. When dealing with protests or marches of this magnitude, the police should be bolstered by the National Guard, since draining the resources of other precincts places the communities they serve at risk.

I personally think that the mob mentality, while not solely to blame, played a large part here. Emotions ran high on both sides, and, as human beings, these people reacted to them. They reacted poorly, and there needs to be accountability (and perhaps some reform in how peaceful protests/marches are handled), especially on the police side.