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BlanchPrez · Post by **BlanchPrez** » Thu May 20, 2004 5:18 am

Wow... that's a highly subjective subject.

Me, personally, I think that it depends on the type of story you want to tell. The genre, if you will. Writting a SciFi adventure requires different things than writting a fantasy adventure. And even at that, writting an old fashioned dungeon crawl requires different planning than does an adventure revolving around political intrigue at the High Kings court.

Also, I have to say, there is a BIG difference between writing a story and writing an adventure or campaign. Some similarities, but the differences are too huge to ignore. For example, when writing a story for an RPG, the first thing you need to keep in mind at all times is that the main characters of your story are the PC's, who will act independently of not just you but your plans as well. Therefore, your story needs to be flexable enough to account for this.

There are tons of other things to consider as well, like are you writing a single adventure or a whole campaign? Is your campaign episodic or epic?

I could go on and on, but I am at work and need to at least pretend that I am earning my paycheck, so I'll stop here.

Chris

Gotetsu · Post by **Gotetsu** » Thu May 20, 2004 7:19 am

I think the key to any good game is making sure it's fun.

For me, this almost invariably involves catering the game to the PCs. Play up to the strengths and weaknesses of the PCs. Make sure the adventure type you are running fits the types of characters made. This is obviously easier to do when your party makes a varied group.

Conversely, the GM/DM/Referee is not the only person responsible for telling the story. The players need to make sure that their charcters fit in with the adventure. I mean, it may seem cool to play an imperial assassin, but if the rest of the party are goodies, and the adventure requires a healthy dose of heroism, it's going to be a huge stretch for you.

smartmonkey · Post by **smartmonkey** » Thu May 20, 2004 7:41 am

If I have my druthers, I go for a "lite" system thats genre specific... Godlike would be a good example of this. The rules take a total of 10 pages, and its one roll for just about everything - and it fits the WWII genre like a glove. Ditto for Nobilis, only for the Neil Gaimanesque setting. I'm a system junkie in any case - I love analyzing 'em, writing 'em, and playing with the numbers. Which is kinda funny, cos I suck at math. Horribly. Ask Wintermute.

~~[quote]~~How to Tell a Story

&

How to Design and Run Games

What do you think are the best elements of a game?[/quote]

Could you elaborate a little? I'm just posting straight out of my ass here, cos I saw "design" and "game" in the same sentance...

cczernia · Post by **cczernia** » Thu May 20, 2004 7:52 am

Not sure what you are getting at.

~~[quote="MarktheAnimator"]~~How to Tell a Story[/quote]

Usually through some form of communication or media.

~~[quote="MarktheAnimator"]~~How to Design and Run Games[/quote]

Designing and playing games are two different things entirely.

~~[quote="MarktheAnimator"]~~What do you think are the best elements of a game?[/quote]

What do you mean by elements? Is this in reference to elements when running a game or designing a game???

Lowly Uhlan · Post by **Lowly Uhlan** » Thu May 20, 2004 1:11 pm

~~[quote="MarktheAnimator"]~~How to Tell a Story

&

How to Design and Run Games

What do you think are the best elements of a game?[/quote]

Hey Marc, Erik here. You're question is pretty broad. I think you've run a game or 2 before and are asking how other's do it.

With me the story comes across while running the game. There always has to be situations (no matter how breif) where there is nothing but dialog between players and GM. No skill tests or combat. Some sessions I run have no combat, and one of the most fun I've had as a GM was in a Trek game where I think there was 2 actual rolls the whole session. A cool story was represented. Don't get me wrong, I really like combat but a story has to unfold and at least half of the sessions I run will always be part of a larger story arc.

BTW the GM always should have the larger story plotted ahead of time, with room for the players to do crazy shit that you don't expect. Has to be room for a little improvisation.

Best elements of a game? Good player interaction, enjoyment of the players and a story that makes sense that isn't the same thing time after time. And NO FUCKING WHINING.

And since I've only designed adventures and campaigns I couldn't tell you anything about game design.

cczernia · Post by **cczernia** » Thu May 20, 2004 2:57 pm

Depends on who you are running for and what you are running. A dungeon crawl could take a long time to prepare with lots of maps and written out monsters. While a looser more social game may just need to have the GM show up and have a clear idea of what he wants to do.

It also comes down to the Narravitivist/Gameist/Simulationist aspect.

Simulationist is going to spend a lot of time preparing so everything makes absolute since and the more detail he can introduce to the game the better. Tell him out it is done Uhlan :)

Gameist - needs to create a since of fairness and objective goals so the PCs know if they win or loose or to what extent they win. D&D is the ultimate in Gameist RPGs (Ruin comes damn close but no one plays Ruin). This is the classic dungeon crawl kiind of game. You need to make sure that monsters/threats are a challenge for the players.

Narrativist - needs little to no preperation. As long as he has an idea of where the game is going and there is a since of drama he is good to go.

Lowly Uhlan · Post by **Lowly Uhlan** » Thu May 20, 2004 2:59 pm

And there he goes again... :roll: :D

mordraine · Post by **mordraine** » Thu May 20, 2004 3:06 pm

I dunno if I agree that the art of GMing isn't discussed. I know many gaming books that go into great detail about how to be a good GM.

I usually skip over those chapters...

Lowly Uhlan · Post by **Lowly Uhlan** » Thu May 20, 2004 3:28 pm

~~[quote="mordraine"]~~I dunno if I agree that the art of GMing isn't discussed. I know many gaming books that go into great detail about how to be a good GM.

I usually skip over those chapters...[/quote]

Right. After reading about 25 of them they get old.

cczernia · Post by **cczernia** » Thu May 20, 2004 3:33 pm

~~[quote="mordraine"]~~I dunno if I agree that the art of GMing isn't discussed. I know many gaming books that go into great detail about how to be a good GM.

I usually skip over those chapters...[/quote]

Most core books will only have a single chapter on running a game. Good for someone just starting out. However, I've found Gamemaster Guides for certain games to be gold. Not only for the game but for GMing in general.

smartmonkey · Post by **smartmonkey** » Thu May 20, 2004 3:34 pm

~~[quote]~~Gameist - needs to create a since of fairness and objective goals so the PCs know if they win or loose or to what extent they win. D&D is the ultimate in Gameist RPGs (Ruin comes damn close but no one plays Ruin). This is the classic dungeon crawl kiind of game. You need to make sure that monsters/threats are a challenge for the players. [/quote]

Rune - the one with the same system as Ars Magica - is a perfect example. Victory points for foes slain, with certain thresholds for a "win", etc...

~~[quote]~~Right. After reading about 25 of them they get old.[/quote]

I can proudly say that I've never actually read "How to use this book" that starts off a white wolf supplement. If I didn't know how to use the book, I shouldn't be buying it. And yeah, most GMing sections -suck-. Same general advice, and very little stuff on the specifics of the setting you should play up. The Exalted corebook dodged this, but most I've read are "don't railroad players" repeated for 10 or so pages.

cczernia · Post by **cczernia** » Thu May 20, 2004 3:40 pm

~~[quote="smartmonkey"]~~
Rune - the one with the same system as Ars Magica - is a perfect example. Victory points for foes slain, with certain thresholds for a "win", etc...[/quote]

That's the one.

~~[quote="smartmonkey"][quote]~~Right. After reading about 25 of them they get old.[/quote]

I can proudly say that I've never actually read "How to use this book" that starts off a white wolf supplement. If I didn't know how to use the book, I shouldn't be buying it. And yeah, most GMing sections -suck-. Same general advice, and very little stuff on the specifics of the setting you should play up. The Exalted corebook dodged this, but most I've read are "don't railroad players" repeated for 10 or so pages.[/quote]

Heh... for some WW books that's been the only section I've read.

smartmonkey · Post by **smartmonkey** » Thu May 20, 2004 3:40 pm

~~[quote]~~Heh... for some WW books that's been the only section I've read.[/quote]

And looking at some of the WW books on my shelf, I'd say you aren't missing too much...

Lowly Uhlan · Post by **Lowly Uhlan** » Thu May 20, 2004 3:55 pm

The "Star Trek Narrator's Guide" has a pretty damn good section on GMing and constructing campaigns, with some really good stuff for writing adventures in acts and scenes. Stuff that could be applied to any game.

BlanchPrez · Post by **BlanchPrez** » Thu May 20, 2004 4:17 pm

~~[quote="Lowly Uhlan"]~~The "Star Trek Narrator's Guide" has a pretty damn good section on GMing and constructing campaigns, with some really good stuff for writing adventures in acts and scenes. Stuff that could be applied to any game.[/quote]

I'll vouch for this. There's also some great articles online from Dragon magazine called Dungeoncraft, that deal with world/campaign building with some good tips in there.

Chris

Northman · Post by **Northman** » Thu May 20, 2004 6:44 pm

The game system that fit the genre best that I've ever played was Star Wars by West End Games. That system, though with a few basic flaws, fit the feel of Star Wars extremely well. It was fast, smooth, heroic, and the flavor West End Games put in it was brilliant and exactly the feel of the movies.

d20 Star Wars pretty much bites the big one.

As for building adventures, I'm in the process of creating a new campaign and starting adventures. The way I'm starting is by designing the starting location (a town), and writing a town history. Then I begin outlining locations within the town. That leads to ideas of conflicts and relationships between NPCs. And from there a possibility of a larger conflict and the direction of the campaign emerges.

But I have to put in lots of possible conflicts and plot devices, because you never know what is going to float players boats. Sometimes they go down the darndest rabbit trails.

cczernia · Post by **cczernia** » Thu May 20, 2004 11:02 pm

~~[quote="Northman"]~~The game system that fit the genre best that I've ever played was Star Wars by West End Games. That system, though with a few basic flaws, fit the feel of Star Wars extremely well. It was fast, smooth, heroic, and the flavor West End Games put in it was brilliant and exactly the feel of the movies.

d20 Star Wars pretty much bites the big one.[/quote]

I've found this to be extremely objective (as most things in RPG fandom are). I bought Star Wars d6 (2nd ed revised) and didn't like it all. After trying to run two games I traded it in. I thought I didn't like WEG d6 but now that I have Metabarons I'm looking at the system again with a new light. Especially the Legends variant which looks really cool.

I find that Star Wars d20 revised captures Star Wars better for me and I normally prefere other systems for most games.

MarktheAnimator · Post by **MarktheAnimator** » Thu May 20, 2004 11:12 pm

Lowly Uhlan · Post by **Lowly Uhlan** » Thu May 20, 2004 11:42 pm

Exactly how I ran my Trek campaign. If you get a chance to pick up the Narrators Guide for that game cheap, do it. I became a better GM after reading it.

Gotetsu · Post by **Gotetsu** » Fri May 21, 2004 6:27 am

In my Forgotten Realms game, I started by laying out the premise of where the characters came from (a town populated largely by retired adventurers), geve them a hint of what kind of adventure would start the campaign off, let them create whatever characters they wanted (within reason), and had each of them give their character a main goal.

Then, when I had all of their characters, I wrote an outline of the entire campaign, broken down by story-arcs. Each story focused on a different character, and the goals they had set for them.

I think we managed to get through about the first story, and got the foundation laid for the second one before the group had a shake up, and suddenly everyone wanted to play other games.

Ah, well. I still wouldn't mind going back to that. I had some good ideas. :D

BreakfastOfChampions · Fri May 21, 2004 6:44 am

What I do depends a lot on my group. Some players have a definite character in mind. Others don't.

I think my goal is to make sure everyone is engaged in something, at the same time, I get to explore the themes and ideas I want to explore.

Some players have something definitely in mind, and the challenge is hooking their ideas into the ideas I'm formulating.

Other players don't. Then I have to pick up on their play style, and come up with things that intrigue them, and hook them into the other heroes and the themes I've wrapped the game around.

cczernia · Post by **cczernia** » Fri May 21, 2004 8:11 am

~~[quote="MarktheAnimator"]~~I used to spend lots of time developing the story, but for some reason, the more time I spend developing the game, the more it sucks when I try to run it. Never could figure that out.

A few of my other GMs never planned anything. They simply learned all they could about the world (or invented it), and then just went with whatever the players wanted. They told me they wanted to react to what the players were doing.[/quote]

When I ran Fading Suns a couple months ago I ran it episodic with the intent that one gaming session would be one episode. They sometime ran into a second night. One in particular I tried to prepare for and was coming up with crap. I threw away my notes and just winged it. By the players reactions it was the best adventure of the campaign. It ran into overtime and with a good idea of what was going on I wrote the second part with lots of detail. That adventure was the worst.

The point is that there are many different ways to prepare for an adventure and what works for won't neccesarily work for everyone else. You might need to change methods if you get different players or decide to run a different game.

Skyman · Post by **Skyman** » Fri May 21, 2004 12:48 pm

I personally think too much about the goal and forget the fun is in the journey. Cczernia once brought up the idea to me about players having a say in what they would like in the game by voting for outcomes and I have begun to think more along that term of letting players make the fun. I can have a story line but the players are trying to develope ones of their own and that tends to be cooler. Not that i'm saying that the GM is just the prop man but more of a guy who fleshes out the elements not in the characters control.

I usually have an intro and reason for meeting to work together.
I have issue(s) of concern
NPC's that advocate or complicate the issue
Social Consequences for actions taken or not
Have various open ends for the adventure end ....because it never ends how I planned it

smartmonkey · Post by **smartmonkey** » Sun May 23, 2004 2:24 pm

I'm going to rant a bit here.

Gaming is not about telling good stories. It's about having fun. An interesting story doesn't have to be "good" (I mean, look at most action movies), and a good story might be boring as all hell (say... the dead poets society). I try to avoid placing literary styles to role playing. Yes, we can tell fantastic stories - but the point of the game is to have fun, and keep people interested. If you do that by outlining vast plots, fine. I tend to bullshit it anyways.

And yeah, that doesn't always work.

Chulainn · Post by **Chulainn** » Sun May 23, 2004 2:59 pm

SM is 100% correct...it is all about the FUN :D
doesn't matter how you get there.

C

Lowly Uhlan · Post by **Lowly Uhlan** » Sun May 23, 2004 10:01 pm

~~[quote="smartmonkey"]~~I'm going to rant a bit here.

Gaming is not about telling good stories. It's about having fun. An interesting story doesn't have to be "good" (I mean, look at most action movies), and a good story might be boring as all hell (say... the dead poets society). I try to avoid placing literary styles to role playing. Yes, we can tell fantastic stories - but the point of the game is to have fun, and keep people interested. If you do that by outlining vast plots, fine. I tend to bullshit it anyways.

And yeah, that doesn't always work.[/quote]

Sure fun is paramount, but having the players "ooh" and "ahh" when an involved story arc unfolds is part of the fun. If a gaming group is doing nothing but cutting up, joking, and not really getting any roleplaying done, it's not a good game.

cczernia · Post by **cczernia** » Sun May 23, 2004 10:40 pm

~~[quote="Lowly Uhlan"]~~Sure fun is paramount, but having the players "ooh" and "ahh" when an involved story arc unfolds is part of the fun. If a gaming group is doing nothing but cutting up, joking, and not really getting any roleplaying done, it's not a good game.[/quote]

Agreed. If you're doing that you aren't really gaming (or are you :shock: ) but at least your together having a good time. A good story usually increases my enjoyment of the game so a good story = fun. This is not true for everyone as lots of maps and dice could = fun for another group.

Lowly Uhlan · Post by **Lowly Uhlan** » Sun May 23, 2004 11:03 pm

Strong story arc's are essential for a good campaign.

Chulainn · Post by **Chulainn** » Mon May 24, 2004 5:31 am

~~[quote="cczernia"]~~
Agreed. If you're doing that you aren't really gaming (or are you :shock: ) but at least your together having a good time.[/quote]

Hmmmmm....oddly familiar. let's see ~16 hours of "gaming" at my house, with about 2-3 as actual gaming. :wink:

C

smartmonkey · Post by **smartmonkey** » Mon May 24, 2004 9:09 am

I'm not saying that a good story doesn't enhance a game... I'm really saying that I don't think the DM needs to have a 15 page outline / flowchart / whatever lying around to consult whenever the players do something. I favor spontaenity in games, and this degree of planning strikes me as -pointless-. Yeah, major plot arcs are cool, but not when they tie your hands as a GM. I'm a "mood" gm... I go for cinematic moments and fun scenes...

But I love a good story when I find one.

Lowly Uhlan · Post by **Lowly Uhlan** » Mon May 24, 2004 9:50 am

I have a tendency to write down a lot of shit, otherwise I'll forget a lot of shit.

mordraine · Post by **mordraine** » Mon May 24, 2004 10:43 am

~~[quote="Lowly Uhlan"]~~I have a tendency to write down a lot of shit, otherwise I'll forget a lot of shit.[/quote]

I forget shit even when I have it written down!

BreakfastOfChampions · Mon May 24, 2004 11:10 am

~~[quote="mordraine"]~~[quote:611c281be8="Lowly Uhlan"]I have a tendency to write down a lot of shit, otherwise I'll forget a lot of shit.[/quote]

I forget shit even when I have it written down![/quote:611c281be8]

I write notes on the bus to work. Then, I leave the notes at work, and run, having to rely on the notes that I've mostly forgotten. Then, on the way home the next day, I write what happened.

At the end of a month or so, it reads like an arguement. "The game will go like this"

Wrong! The game went like this!

Even more fun is finding NPCs I never used, or completely changed before I actually ran.

MarktheAnimator · Post by **MarktheAnimator** » Mon May 24, 2004 5:34 pm

cczernia · Post by **cczernia** » Mon May 24, 2004 5:47 pm

~~[quote="MarktheAnimator"]~~You don't need huge piles of notes to run a good story in a game.

This is what they call, "World Builder's Disease."

It's easy to go crazy about your creation and write histories, backgrounds, plots, etc. and this tends to slow everything down.
[/quote]

I've managed to get an entire campaign on a sheet of paper :) All I need to write down is important names of NPCs and who they are. Example:

~~[i]~~Chris Czerniak - supreme GM and all around nice guy

Lucita - sepreme vampire seductress, drooled over by millions of WW fanboys[/i]

I might also write some notes in the margins or on the back. I know it has been a long and detailed campaign if the NPCs get to the back.

As for World Building. Most people do it because it is fun. The problem is when they think they are doing for the players or that the players need to get involved. The second you do that you'll be disappointed in the reaction of the players.

~~[i]~~GM: Man, I spent hours building this website and only 1 of you checked it out :evil:

Player: Sorry dude, just tell us what we missed.[/i]

I found World Building and lots of preperation helps me understand everything in my head allowing me to improvise a lot better during game play. I don't need my notes but it helps that I wrote them (kinda like BoC's method).

MarktheAnimator · Post by **MarktheAnimator** » Mon May 24, 2004 6:24 pm

Northman · Post by **Northman** » Mon May 24, 2004 10:04 pm

Perhaps you can have fun without the game being a good story, but if it was fun, what happened always turned into a story.

"So we walking down the dungeon corridor when this pit opens up and Bob the Barbarian falls in. Just as Spiffy the Rogue gets his rope out a carrion crawler appears behind the wizard! The only way he was going to get out of the way was if the DM rolled 8 1s, 2s, or 3s. The first roll was a 2, the second roll was a 3, and you wouldn't believe it..."

Everything for roleplayers turns into a story one way or the other. We're the only nerds that think that other nerds who like our hobby want to hear about every dramatic moment we've ever had in our homebrew games. Perfect strangers in an elevator in a gaming convention will start explaining how their 14th level elf survived an encounter with a greater wyrm with only 1 hit point...

We are dorks.

Chulainn · Post by **Chulainn** » Tue May 25, 2004 5:24 am

~~[quote="Northman"]~~We are dorks.[/quote]

in the styling of:

~~[i]~~Chris Czerniak - supreme GM and all around nice guy [/i]

that is:

~~[i]~~Chulainn - Master Dork of the infinite level and RPG fan boy[/i]

to you! :wink: :D

C

BreakfastOfChampions · Tue May 25, 2004 6:31 am

I'm not sure I have a method. I work mostly from image, I think, and from interrelationships.

I also do a degee of management to it all, thinking, "Hmm Morgan wants to play a brash pistolero who plays the lottery too much. How do I put those elements together to make something interesting?"

I think about themes, but I'm not sure I overtly act on them. In my d20 Modern game, the Sidhe are unreal and not understandable. At the same time, they have to be comprehendable to the point heroes can interract with them and players say, "hmm that's weird."

I think saying 'the target is X' is a bit narrow. I don't think there is 'a' target, but perhaps a sweet spot for a given group of players/gm.

smartmonkey · Post by **smartmonkey** » Tue May 25, 2004 7:09 am

~~[quote]~~I also do a degee of management to it all, thinking, "Hmm Morgan wants to play a brash pistolero who plays the lottery too much. How do I put those elements together to make something interesting?" [/quote]

Dude, I'd play that character.

smartmonkey · Post by **smartmonkey** » Tue May 25, 2004 10:13 pm

Some thoughts on good game/adventure design:

Mostly stuff I've picked up along the way.

1) Read lots. RPG's, cos you should keep up with what other people are doing with mechanics and settings, and novels - cos good writers come from good readers.

2) Don't produce fantasy heartbreakers. If you don't understand what that is, click here: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/9 and here http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/10/ - This is harder than you'd think. I've produced about 6 games that could be classified heartbreakers. Mostly during math classes.

3) Game often. Steal other GM's tricks. Rip off other games and supplements for adventure ideas.

Have fun. I just felt like writing that.

xx