GURPS 4E changes

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Lowly Uhlan
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Post by Lowly Uhlan »

This is relevant to me, since I'll be buying and playing this. Can someone familiar with GURPS tell me if these are good changes?

http://groups.google.it/groups?selm=e6e ... xmaster.it

I'll be running Transhuman Space at a later date. Hoping I'm not making a mistake by buying THS books now, since SJ has said they might reissue it depending on the success of 4E.
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Post by BreakfastOfChampions »

Look like good changes overall. Will look at lite before getting standard, if I get it.
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Post by cczernia »


[quote]ST damage progression is changed, no more thrust/swing table, only one[/quote]

This is a good change IMHO. I couldn't stand the whacked damage rules in GURPS. According the GURPS the most deadly melee weapon was a pick!!!

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Post by Jake »

I don’t know. It seems like they may have just dumbed it down. I’ll go section by section if anyone cares.

Attributes:
I don’t like the idea of flat points/ level for stats. Before, for those who don’t know, levels in attributes get progressively more expensive. I do like the idea of DX and IQ coasting more then HT and IQ. The only other change in the attributes section is that now HP will be based off St and not Heath (and vis versa for Fatigue). Plus this has been a very common and wide spread house rule.

Ads/Disads:
Not a lot of info given here. Looks like languages have been reworked. Before proficiency was based on skill level, which in turn was based on IQ plus skill points put into it. The problem people had was that a high IQ character that put one skill point in a language could speak it as well as an average native since native language skill was simply equal to IQ. There is another wide spread house rule that made Skill Level represent vocabulary and Skill points represent accent or lack there of.

Skills:
The “no more mental/physical skill distinction” seems to be there just to simplify things. Before, the two had different coast progression, and some things would effect either physical or knowledge skills separately. Don’t really like these changes either. Dex based skills went 1/2,1,2,4,8,,16,24,32… IQ skills went ½,1,2,4,6,8… I think this better represents reality and makes for better game play. Let’s face it; Dex based skills (i.e. combat skills) are more beneficial, and characters that take more knowledge skills should be able to get more for the same price. (IMHO) “Bang” skills sounds kind of stupid and would most likely only be suitable for cinematic campaigns. They had “Science!” before. Think Reed Richards of the Fantastic Four. The idea of “Talents” could be cool. Maneuvers originated in the “Martial Arts” book but later the more basic ones could be found in “Compendium I”. So nothing new there. And I see no reason to shorten the skill list.

Mechanics:
I have no idea what “Quad ST” means. I liked the old swing/thrust differential. The idea was that you could get more power behind a swinging action then you could with a thrusting one. Basic/advanced combat rule already exist. I liked snap shot and blow-through. Snap shot was based on the idea that some guns are easier to get a quick shot off with. Blow-through meant that you could only do so much damage with an impaling weapon (or bullet) to a given body part before the weapon (or bullet) passes through said body part. These two rules were optional and I can see no reason to drop optional rules. Everything else seams trivial.

Magic/Psi/Superpowers:
Most of this is either trivial or too vague to comment on. I do like the idea of different magic systems. There were a few located in different books but the only alternate one I liked was ritual magic found in “Voodoo”
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Post by Jake »

Summing things up here. I’m not too impressed with what I see here. I think the real changes will come in some of the core mechanics of the game. It would have to. I don’t really see anything that would justify a whole new set
of books. I’m a big fan of the system and SJGames on the whole and I was confident the changes would be worth while. But looking at this makes me think that it might be just a reaction to the d20 craze.
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Post by Lowly Uhlan »

Hmmm...

I would think those aren't the only changes and there's probably a whole lot more that will be different. Such as the complete rules in only 2 volumes. Rather than the core book and 2 compendiums, for starters. Other GURPS players elsewhere on the net seem to be pretty stoked about it.
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Post by Jake »


[quote="Lowly Uhlan"]Hmmm...



I would think those aren't the only changes and there's probably a whole lot more that will be different. Such as the complete rules in only 2 volumes. Rather than the core book and 2 compendiums, for starters. Other GURPS players elsewhere on the net seem to be pretty stoked about it.[/quote]


I was too. Until I read this. To tell you the truth I would expect a lot more changes then this. Either way I think the Basic and Compendiums could fit into two books as is. It would just take a little editing and compiling of chapters to do it. To tell you the truth I think a lot of the excitement has come from the fact that we GURPS fans have been hearing about a 4E for years. Kind of like the new Star Wars movies. I just hope this has a better outcome. Man, now I just being too cynical. I just hope that either this guy has no idea what he’s talking about or that it all comes together and works better then it looks.

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Post by cczernia »

I don't think we'll see that many rule changes beyond what was listed. Honestly, I think the only reason for a new edition is to pump sales. I think if they went in and dratically changed the system GURPS fans would be pissed. These minor changes seem to simplify and streamline the system.

Of course we know the most important aspect of G4 is the cover :roll:
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Post by BreakfastOfChampions »

Considering they haven't had a revision in a while, this might be to pump sales, but I think its mroe out of a desire to streamline.
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Post by Lowly Uhlan »


[quote="cczernia"]I don't think we'll see that many rule changes beyond what was listed. Honestly, I think the only reason for a new edition is to pump sales. I think if they went in and dratically changed the system GURPS fans would be pissed. These minor changes seem to simplify and streamline the system.



Of course we know the most important aspect of G4 is the cover :roll:[/quote]


Yeah, it's really important to game play :D . They had a poll featuring different covers and I voted in it. If I can find the link I'll post it.



And I do think that streamling will be the focus of 4E. I'm highly intimidated by the books as they stand now with 3E as far as whether I'd want to buy and learn the system. Core book and 2 compendiums is too much for a beginner.

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Post by cczernia »


[quote="Lowly Uhlan"]Yeah, it's really important to game play :D . They had a poll featuring different covers and I voted in it. If I can find the link I'll post it.



And I do think that streamling will be the focus of 4E. I'm highly intimidated by the books as they stand now with 3E as far as whether I'd want to buy and learn the system. Core book and 2 compendiums is too much for a beginner.[/quote]


How can you be intimidated by GURPS with all your HERO books??? I played GURPS for about a year using the 3rd Ed, Cyberpunk, Supers, and Traveller for about a year and never had a problem and never thought there were huge gaps in the rules. I didn't even know there were Compendiums until after I started playing so I would hardly call them essential.

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Post by Jake »

If there’s one thing I know it’s that streamlining is for pussies. GURPS isn’t all that hard. I can see how it would be for some one as a new DM but with a little backup from some one who’s experienced you could be up and going really quickly. Start with the Basic no real problem there. Compendium I is mostly for character generation. I wouldn’t call it essential but it sure makes the game a hell of a lot more fun. Then you have Compendium II. Now this IS an intimidating looking SOB. But it really shouldn’t be. They have everything broken down really well. There’s a real nice flow chart in the combat section that you can refer to if anything unusual turns up. Then use the rest of the book as a quick reference. There’s a good chapter on healing and even one on combat with animals with different hit location charts. But the main thing to remember is that all these rules are optional. They mostly just come up in special situation. If you want additional help there’s a nice GM screen with almost everything you’ll need during combat in table form.
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Post by Wintermute »

I guess we'll have to wait and see. None of these changes seem particularly necessary to me, but I may change my mind once I actually play using them.
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Post by mordraine »


[quote="Jake"]If there’s one thing I know it’s that [b]streamlining is for pussies[/b]. [/quote]

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Post by Lowly Uhlan »


[quote="cczernia"][quote:4b4019afd0="Lowly Uhlan"]Yeah, it's really important to game play :D . They had a poll featuring different covers and I voted in it. If I can find the link I'll post it.



And I do think that streamling will be the focus of 4E. I'm highly intimidated by the books as they stand now with 3E as far as whether I'd want to buy and learn the system. Core book and 2 compendiums is too much for a beginner.[/quote]


How can you be intimidated by GURPS with all your HERO books??? I played GURPS for about a year using the 3rd Ed, Cyberpunk, Supers, and Traveller for about a year and never had a problem and never thought there were huge gaps in the rules. I didn't even know there were Compendiums until after I started playing so I would hardly call them essential.[/quote:4b4019afd0]



When it comes to Hero you only need 5E to play. 1 core book has the guidelines to build everything. I don't need supplements to run Star Hero or any other genre. No basic skills spread out over 3 books. Star Hero and Fantasy Hero (Genre books) have suggested tweeks and take a lot of the work out of it though. The supplements provide mostly setting, I've pilfered them for tech though they are solid settings. I could do it using only 5E and have it be complete, but it would take longer. Taking in 1 core book and 2 compendia just to be conversant with the rules is intimidating. I On the back of the THS core book it says the game is complete but 3E, Compendiun 1, and BIO-Tech are helpful. 3 books recommended by the publisher besides the THS book. Seems a little confusing. And intimidating.

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Post by Jake »

After this topic and the World Building stuff I decided to take a look at Hero. On a side note it’s the 4th edition electronic version. After reading through it I think I can shed a little more light on the whole GURPS vs. HERO thing. GURPS tries to exhaust all options by giving you tons of skills, advantages and disadvantages. That’s were Compendium I comes into play. It also tries to it also tries to cover all scenarios that gamers might want to play out. Sometimes it’s real crazy shit. Some times it might come in handy. But most of the time you could do with out it. This is where Compendium II comes in. Fun for some, but not at all necessary.

As far as Hero my impression is that it really shines when it comes to Powers. That’s how a GM tweaks it for any given setting. On the other hand it seems real lacking when it comes to skills and -vantages. Plus they’re trying to do something with the whole 9+(Characteristic/5) thing, but I don’t know what it is. It doesn’t seem like there’s much of a difference between playing a character with an INT of 8 and one of 12. Then the skill and talent list seems very stunted. Plus they don’t seem to have much of an effect on game play other then knowing how to do something or not. That’s what I really like about GURPS. The skills and –vantages can have a real profound effect on the character. You can really make a character successful in some very unorthodox ways.

Anyways this wasn’t supposed to be about how much I love GURPS, because I’m sure you’re all sick of that. I’d like to get a few things out of this. One, Lowly Uhlan’s opinion on why likes Hero so much. And have him explain the reason for the whole 9+(Char/5) thing. And two, to get some consensus on something other then d20 for the world building thing.
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Post by cczernia »

One thing I noticed about HERO was that you can build just about anything except it takes bizarre logical leaps to build such things. I found that it takes awhile to get use to the idea of "effects based" system.

An example given by CZ was that if you wanted to have a character who could punch through walls you would make it and "energy blast" with special effects. Now, this might make sense to some but I still have trouble wrapping my ahead around it. And just about everything works like this in HERO. So a newbie might see the system as limited, while an expert could do anything because the expert thinks within the confines of HERO.

Personally, I think HERO would be a could system if they got rid of all those damn points :D
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Post by Jake »

I think I know what you mean by the punching power thing. They do a lot with generic attacks, and then add special effects to it. This is cool with supers but it doesn’t it well when they call a boxer right swing the same maneuver as kick.
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Post by Lowly Uhlan »

Character building in Hero is time consuming but othrerwise pretty easy IMO. Just a whole lot of things to consider when doing it.

9+char/5 gives a target number for using skills. If it's an intellect skill and your intellect is 10 you have to roll 11 or less. It's pretty straightforward. You can add skill levels for 1 or 2 points a peice adjusting the target up by skill levels (+1's). 2 extra skill levels makes the above roll 13 or less (on 3 dice). Its a skill-based task resolution mechanic. Seems simple enough to me.

I don't know what a -vantage is but will assume it's a disadvantage. Character disadvantages in Hero are things such as Psych and Physical Limitations, Hunted, ect, ect.. Things that effect the characters physical, social, and psychological makeup. These have a huge bearing on the character's concept and point cost and come up during play often.

Power Limitations effect powers, lowering the cost, making them a little less effective. Charges (shots), Focus (power basically becomes based on some object) and a bunch more to choose from. These come into play a lot too. Power advantages are the reverse, pumping the powers with effects and icreasing the cost.

Then there's adders and limitations for some of the specific powers as well. And I guarantee that any disad or limitation you give me from GURPS can be built using Hero. Nothing stunted about it.
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Post by Jake »


[quote="Lowly Uhlan"]9+char/5 gives a target number for using skills. If it's an intellect skill and your intellect is 10 you have to roll 11 or less. It's pretty straightforward. You can add skill levels for 1 or 2 points a peice adjusting the target up by skill levels (+1's). 2 extra skill levels makes the above roll 13 or less (on 3 dice). Its a skill-based task resolution mechanic. Seems simple enough to me.[/quote]
I get all that I just don’t get why they use 9 + Characteristic /5 instead of straight Characteristic. Like I said, it seams like Int 8-12 are the exact same. In fact there’s not that much of a difference between 10 and 20. There’s a difference just not as much as there should be between average and peak human IQ. I guess they want it to represent something but I can’t figure what. :?
[quote="Lowly Uhlan"]Then there's adders and limitations for some of the specific powers as well. And I guarantee that any disad or limitation you give me from GURPS can be built using Hero. Nothing stunted about it.[/quote]
That was kind of my point the whole time. I think the team behind Hero is that you can make anything. And in GURPS they have huge lists of rules, advantages, and disadvantages (many that you would be unlikely to come up with on your own) so you don’t have to, hence Compendiums I and II. And I want to stress that this is not a pro-GURPS thing. I just want one of us to understand the other’s system well enough that we won’t have to us d20 for The Great Dragon War. :wink:



Oh and “-vantages” was me being lazy and not wanting to type "advantages/disadvantages". Which was pointless since now I had to type these couple of sentences

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