Leverage RPG...

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mordraine
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Leverage RPG...

Post by mordraine »


So, Margaret Weiss Games is producing a new [url=http://www.margaretweis.com/mwp-online-store/leverage]Leverage[/url] RPG based on the TV show with Tim Hutton. It's basically a Heist/Mission Impossible sort of game. Some of you probably already know this. The reason I post about it (besides the fact that the game is being produced) is, the difficult thing about running a heist game (as described by an RPGnet guy here):


[quote="Some guy at RPGnet"]The big question I have is the one I've always had about caper games: most caper films and TV shows work on the principle that the central characters (and the writers) know more than the audience. We think Danny Ocean is screwed when the big bruiser turns up, but he's actually on Danny's side. We get to see the plan only AS it unfolds, not beforehand. Even with narrative control, RPGs make the writer and the audience the same, so you can never get that kind of surprise.[/quote]

And the solution in the game is this:
[quote="Some other guy at RPGnet"]The Quickstart (just bought it) tackles it. There's a Flashback mechanic to let the players retcon in actions. I am not a big fan of the base Cortex system, but this stripped down version seems really sweet.[/quote]

To which I say... holy crap! That type of mechanic was worked up in a gaming group I was in a few years back (admittedly I had stopped playing in that group when they were playing that heist game). cczernia and jimmy corrigan and Count Zero (I think) were involved in that group (a previous incarnation of The Champions). I just think it's cool that they came up with the mechanic years before this game came around.

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Dragonmaster Zoc
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Post by Dragonmaster Zoc »

Sitting down and planning is often the less interesting part of any game. Being able to plan as you go along via a retcon mechanic seems like it would solve that, but wouldn't that involve changing the past based on your present? Like, as you're going along, you notice that something is set up to an alarm, so conveniently you had disabled that beforehand?
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Post by mordraine »

More than likely the flashback is controlled by some sort of game economics - like you can only do a flashback once per session or once per adventure or you have only so many flashback points or something like that. So you'd want to be careful how many times you do it.
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Post by Sadohara »

Here come them grapes.

I agree with DMZoc in that, for me, planning (especially over-planning) is the fastest way to kill an RPG. The fluidity, the acting without thinking, and innovative problem solving is what makes encounters/campaigns fun.

The Flashback mechanic sounds like it still encourages that sort of play. However, with the wrong sort of group dynamic, you could quite probably end up with extreme planners who prepare for every circumstance, then Flashback away the GM surprises.

With the right group, it could be a very cool cinematic representation of a heist. Without, it could amount to a creative logistics problem.

Curious what the creator of Leverage thinks of the game/system, given that he is a large nerd, having contributed the Feywild chapter of the Manual of the Planes and been a longtime geekgeist participant.
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Post by devlin1 »

Given that Fred Hicks is the lead developer on this, I don't think it's going to encourage spending hours on the front end planning the evening to death. This sort of thing is a very simple matter in FATE: Roll Burglary to case the place, then put X number of aspects on the scene to reflect your planning, surveillance, and preparation. Leverage could work along similar lines. You come upon a security-alarmed door, you spend a resource of some kind, and make a Security Door Unalarming roll. Succeed, and you narrate how you already dealt with this door yesterday somehow. Fail, and you deal with it now, at a penalty.

Honestly, I don't think the flashback mechanic is all that remarkable -- maybe I'll change my mind once I see it, but it just seems like such a no-brainer. For one, it's the way it happens in movies like Ocean's 11, so they're really just going back to the source material and emulating it. That's a good thing, IMO. For two, Glen thought of it years ago, so how innovative can it be?

(Take that, Glen!)
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Post by mordraine »


[quote="devlin1"]For two, [i]Glen[/i] thought of it years ago, so how innovative can it be?



(Take [i]that[/i], Glen!)[/quote]


Yeah that's what I was referencing in my OP. I didn't remember if it was Glen or Chris who thought of it.



I'm pretty interested in it, from what I've heard. Instead of skills, you have roles. Like - Hitter, Grifter, Hacker, Mastermind, etc. (well there are only five roles, but I don't remember the fifth). Anything that you can justify as coming under your role, you can roll to attempt.



edit - the fifth role is Thief (duh!)

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Post by mordraine »


[quote="devlin1"]Given that Fred Hicks is the lead developer on this, I don't think it's going to encourage spending hours on the front end planning the evening to death.[/quote]

I thought the lead guy was Cam Banks. Fred's working on it, but I got the impression that Cam was the lead dude.

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Post by cczernia »


[quote="devlin1"]
Honestly, I don't think the flashback mechanic is all that remarkable -- maybe I'll change my mind once I see it, but it just seems like such a no-brainer. For one, it's the way it happens in movies like [i]Ocean's 11[/i], so they're really just going back to the source material and emulating it. That's a good thing, IMO. For two, [i]Glen[/i] thought of it years ago, so how innovative can it be?



(Take [i]that[/i], Glen!)[/quote]


Yeah! Bam!



Anyway, it didn't work. The game collapsed in on itself despite the flashback mechanic. We were using HARP where there as a high chance of failure so instead of being badass and clever we seemed more like a bunch of noobs falling out of trees.



The best mechanic I've seen for planning is John Wick's wilderness of mirrors where the players come up with the obstacles. I use this to run Shadowrun game where the only detail I gave the players was they had to steal a dragon egg. It worked really well.



However, I did have a "we are fucked mechanic flashback" mechanic where the players could spend edge equal to the amount of players. In one case to complicate things I determined that the egg was moved the replaced with a fake.



The players did a flashback scene where they had it so what was the fake was the actual egg. It worked really well and I hope that Leverage will be equally cool.

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Post by devlin1 »


[quote="mordraine"]I thought the lead guy was Cam Banks. Fred's working on it, but I got the impression that Cam was the lead dude.[/quote]

[url=http://www.margaretweis.com/mwp-online-store/leverage]This page[/url] lists Fred hicks as the "Design and Creative Director." So not "Lead Developer," I guess, but "Design and Creative Director" does seem to indicate a lead role, IMO.



And guess who else is on the team? FORBECK!

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Post by mordraine »


Huh... I was getting my info from Fred's post on RPGnet:


[quote="Fred Hicks on RPGnet"]I've heard good things about Hustle. The Leverage RPG project head, Cam Banks, has definitely seen it.[/quote]

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Post by Skyman »

Man I almost forgot about that game Chris....that was fun at the Getty
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Post by cczernia »


[quote="devlin1"][url=http://www.margaretweis.com/mwp-online-store/leverage]This page[/url] lists Fred hicks as the "Design and Creative Director." So not "Lead Developer," I guess, but "Design and Creative Director" does seem to indicate a lead role, IMO.



And guess who else is on the team? FORBECK![/quote]


It could mean he is in charge of the graphic design and art.

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