Leftovers Served

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mordraine
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Leftovers Served

Post by mordraine »

So, we (Mordraine, dnd3eplayer, cczernia, and Cthulhu) just playtested Leftovers and have some feedback.
  • When we started combat, we could not find any rules for initiative. We house ruled it to be Perceptive score + 1/2 Combatative or 1/2 Horrific Nature (whichever is higher). Maybe we missed it?
  • In one situation, we had to do a group stealthy, but the "assist" rules don't really make sense in that scenario. If one person doesn't have the Stealthy trait, wouldn't that make the stealthy attempt more difficult? How would you resolve that task attempt? We thought there should be some mention of that in the task resolution section. We house ruled it to be -1 step per person without the specific trait.
  • Assist rules - can one only help/assist if they have the particular trait? It seems to be assumed in the rules, but it's not specifically called out.
  • No rules for area of effect weapons (i.e. molotov cocktails)
  • We wondered if there should be rules for surprise.
  • We thought a Survival trait would be useful. Nothing really seemed to fit that. Resourceful was the closest, but not a perfect fit.
  • Contested conflicts, especially at high trait levels, could take a long time. We tested out one where both characters had the same dice pool and it took nine rolls before we got one "hit." If the contest required 3 or 4 hits, it would've taken a very long time.
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Post by mordraine »

Characters

mordraine: Grey Smith (mousy little sneaky guy)
dnd3eplayer: DJ Beastly (rapper gangster guy all grafted up)
Cthulhu: Jimbo Williams (ex John Deer mechanic)
cczernia: Dr. Ido (female doctor)

Here's mine. Everyone else will probably get to posting their character separately. I ended up GMing, so my character was an NPC.

Grey Smith
Human Nature: d10
Horrific Nature: d6
1 Minor Graft: a red eye on the back of his neck (d6)
Traits -
  • Stealthy (d12)
  • Deceptive (d10)
  • Combatative (d8)
  • Resourceful (d8)
  • Driver (d6)
  • Horrors (d6)
  • Athletic (d6)
  • Strong (d4)
  • Perceptive (d4)
  • Intimidating (d4)
  • Resolute (d4)
  • Educated (d4)
Bonds -
  • I trust Jimbo because he fixed my car (d6)
  • I distrust Dr. Ido because she's too perfect (d8)
  • I'm loyal to Dr. Ido because I know she can fix me up (d10)
  • I'd betray DJ Beastly for his nice gear (d6)
Tools -
  • Lockpicks (d8)
  • Pistol (d6)
Physical Defense - 11
Mental Defense - 7
Vigor - 3
Spirit - 2
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Post by devlin1 »


Wow! Good stuff! Thanks guys -- let me work through these. I'm sure they're almost all stuff that just didn't occur to me during the two-week design process.


[quote="mordraine"]
When we started combat, we could not find any rules for initiative. We house ruled it to be Perceptive score + 1/2 Combatative or 1/2 Horrific Nature (whichever is higher). Maybe we missed it?
[/quote]

No, you're right -- this was left out. I'd probably go with a Perceptive roll, with the high roller going first.



EDIT: I appreciate your on-the-fly house rule, and the inclusion of Horrific Nature, but I don't want to make initiative another stat. The thing about rolling Perceptive is that if you have a Graft that could help, you'll be rolling that and Horrific Nature anyway [i]on top of [/i]Perceptive, which is probably enough of a leg-up.


[quote]In one situation, we had to do a group stealthy, but the "assist" rules don't really make sense in that scenario. If one person doesn't have the Stealthy trait, wouldn't that make the stealthy attempt more difficult? How would you resolve that task attempt? We thought there should be some mention of that in the task resolution section. We house ruled it to be -1 step per person without the specific trait.[/quote]
I'd either have each PC make a Stealthy roll, or have the least Stealthy PC make a roll. It seems to me you're looking for the weakest link in a situation like that.


[quote]Assist rules - can one only help/assist of they have the particular trait? It seems to be assumed in the rules, but it's not specifically called out.[/quote]
This seems pretty situational; it deserves more thought. My thinking for these things was along the lines of overt physical activity -- pushing over a wall, working together to build or fix something, etc. So let me think about that.


[quote]No rules for area of effect weapons (i.e. molotov cocktails)[/quote]
Yeah... I relied pretty heavily on common sense and GM ruling for this.



EDIT: Quickie-ish ruling: Area-effect weapons do full damage to everything within a close distance of the target (i.e., within about ten feet, roughly speaking) and half damage to everything between a close and medium distance away. Or just damage everything within a close distance, and that's that. That's probably better. Range for thrown weapons should correspond to the attacker's Combative or Strong Trait. I'm torn between narrative consistency (the Combative guys should just naturally be better at combat -- but that means that if you have Combative at d12 and Strong at zero, in one specific instance you suddenly have incredible upper body strength) and logic (Strong guys can throw things farther than non-Strong guys -- but that means that if you have Strong at d12 and Combative at zero, in one specific instance you're suddenly awesome at combat).


[quote]We wondered if there should be rules for surprise.[/quote]
The implicit rule for surprising someone is Stealthy vs. Perceptive. The benefits of surprise are in the Combat section -- halve the defender's defense.


[quote]We thought a Survival trait would be useful. Nothing really seemed to fit that. Resourceful was the closest, but not a perfect fit.[/quote]
This may sound like a goofy question, but what would you use it for? I tend to think of just about everything PCs do as falling under "Survival" of a sort.


[quote]Contested conflicts, especially at high trait levels, could take a long time. We tested out one where both characters had the same dice pool and it took nine rolls before we got one "hit." If the contest required 3 or 4 hits, it would've taken a very long time.[/quote]
Hmm. That's more of a problem, and will require more thought and playtesting. Any thoughts on this? Could [i]everything [/i]target either PD or MD?



Thanks so much guys. Really appreciate it.

Mike Olson
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Post by mordraine »

We all created characters and played through an adhoc adventure. I GM'd (and my character was an NPC). The group wanted to get a solar powered generator that was available at a junk shop, but the junk shop owner wanted a crate of medicine that he heard could be found in the ruins, where an old hospital once stood.

On the way, the group encountered some Humanists. They stole their jeep, but got a bit jacked up. Cthulhu's character Jimbo took four wounds. They also encountered a Hookface, and killed it rather easily, then grafted the weird neck/head to Jimbo.

All in all, we had a lot of fun. Has some great potential.

Oh, one more question came up:
When one is subtracting or adding steps, does that apply to any dice or just trait dice? My assumption was any dice, and that's how we played it, but the question came up.
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Post by devlin1 »


[quote="mordraine"]We all created characters and played through an adhoc adventure. I GM'd (and my character was an NPC). The group wanted to get a solar powered generator that was available at a junk shop, but the junk shop owner wanted a crate of medicine that he heard could be found in the ruins, where an old hospital once stood.



On the way, the group encountered some Humanists. They stole their jeep, but got a bit jacked up. Cthulhu's character Jimbo took four wounds. They also encountered a Hookface, and killed it rather easily, then grafted the weird neck/head to Jimbo.



All in all, we had a lot of fun. Has some great potential.[/quote]

Ha! Great.



So what you're saying is that Horrors need to be harder to kill. Or was it just the gang-up factor?



Something that's near the top of my list is specifying how you lose limbs, because it's pretty important to know what can be replaced with Grafts. Four Wounds would certainly cut something off, though. Love the image of a guy with a hookface neck/head coming out of his... what, chest?


[quote]Oh, one more question came up:

When one is subtracting or adding steps, does that apply to any dice or just trait dice? My assumption was any dice, and that's how we played it, but the question came up.[/quote]

Yeah, they're added to/taken off all available dice.

Mike Olson
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Post by devlin1 »


[quote="mordraine"]Contested conflicts, especially at high trait levels, could take a long time. We tested out one where both characters had the same dice pool and it took nine rolls before we got one "hit." If the contest required 3 or 4 hits, it would've taken a very long time.
[/quote]

Thinking aloud on my blog, I posted this in response:
[quote="me on Roll Some Dice"]Hmm. Not sure what to do about that. An initial instinct is to say that identical dice on either side of the conflict cancel each other out -- that is, if one guy's rolling d6 + d8 + d10 and the other guy's rolling d8 + d10 + d10, it'd actually be roll of d6 vs. d10. If all dice are identical, just roll Nature. It's certainly simpler, but I'm not sure if it really makes sense, or would actually be fun.[/quote]
What do you think of that? With the entire pool, the first guy's average is 13.5 and the second's is 15.5, and with canceling dice it's 3.5 vs. 5.5, so the odds seem pretty comparable to me. But is it too fiddly? I can't figure out how I feel about it.

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Post by Dragonkin »

Having like dice cancel each other seems to make sense to me. Think of it in terms of fencing. Jack and Sam are the same age, with similar build, and comparable reflexes. They both trained in the same defensive styles, but their offenses are wildly different. Does one have an advantage here? Not really. But, if they'd trained in all the same styles, but Sam had the opportunity to train one additional style, then there's a disparity that can be exploited. All the similar things cancel each other, and all that remains is the difference. Sounds good. RUN WITH IT!!
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Post by devlin1 »


[quote="Dragonkin"]All the similar things cancel each other, and all that remains is the difference. Sounds good. RUN WITH IT!![/quote]
Yeah, that's my thinking. Something about it seems off, though... I can't put my finger on what. It works out mathematically and logically (mostly).



Actually, the math problem is this: exceeding your opponent's total by multiples of 6. I assume here we're talking about a d12 Trait, which means every 6 points over his total is a Hit, and if you're looking for multiple Hits it's still going to take forever. That's the real problem they/you guys were having, and one that can't be solved by simply rolling 1d12 vs. 1d12.



Did Savage Worlds have the right of it? Should it just be one Hit per 4 points in excess of the Target? Or maybe in the case of one die vs. one die, it should just be 1 Hit per 2 points. But I hate special cases with the fury of a thousand etc.



At any rate, [url=http://sites.google.com/site/leftoversrpg]I'm keeping track of the game's progressive versions here[/url], for anyone who wants to see the most recent iteration of the rules and/or keep up with its development.

Mike Olson
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Post by cczernia »


[quote="devlin1"]
Actually, the math problem is this: exceeding your opponent's total by multiples of 6. I assume here we're talking about a d12 Trait, which means every 6 points over his total is a Hit, and if you're looking for multiple Hits it's still going to take forever. That's the real problem they/you guys were having, and one that can't be solved by simply rolling 1d12 vs. 1d12.



Did Savage Worlds have the right of it? Should it just be one Hit per 4 points in excess of the Target? Or maybe in the case of one die vs. one die, it should just be 1 Hit per 2 points. But I hate special cases with the fury of a thousand etc.[/quote]


Actually, when we first looked at dividing by die type to figure out how many hits you had when that it would be a pain but we didn't have a problem with it.



When we tested contested actions the first thing we noticed was that you didn't get anything for succeeding. You had to get at least one hit. So, I first solution was if you one the roll but didn't get a hit you got +2 steps on your next roll (similar to combat). Our problem with this was that we weren't sure if those steps could be applied to any dice or just traits. Since, you stated that they can be applied to any dice I think this would resolve high level contested conflicts.





Here is my character

[b]Dr Ido[/b]



Human d12

Horrific d4



Phys Def: 12

Mental Def: 8

Vigor: 2

Spirit: 2

Initiative: 11 (per house rule)



TRAITS (names shortened)

Medical d12

Combat d10

Resource d8

Science d8

Horrors d6

Friendly d6

Perception d6

Athletic d4

Drive d4

Empathic d4

Resolute d4

Educated d4



BONDS

I trust Grey because I have a crush on him (d12)

I distrust Jimbo because he is willing to get grafts (d8)

I'm loyal to DJ because we were childhood friends (d10)

I'll betray DJ to study grafts closely (d6)



TOOLS

Medical Kit (Medical) d8

Makeshift halberd (Combat) d8



GRAFTS

none

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Post by cczernia »

Some other thoughts:

We weren't too sure when to use bonds. Examples given showed that we could use a trust bond if we are fighting with that person even if the trust issue isn't really relevant. However, the betray examples are all specific to the person and issue.

Everything felt fairly balanced. We gave as good as we got in two combats. Game is vicious and I could see us becoming a horror or dying in 3 to 4 sessions.

When we were fighting five humanist soldiers Mordraine had some difficulty keeping track of what the soldiers needed to roll as they took wounds. It took him a while to calculate the dice needed.

That fight with the horror was not easy. I think I just got two lucky rolls in a roe.
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Post by devlin1 »


[quote="cczernia"]Actually, when we first looked at dividing by die type to figure out how many hits you had when that it would be a pain but we didn't have a problem with it.[/quote]
I'd expect it went something like this:



Chris: "Division?" *head explodes*



That's good to hear, though.


[quote]When we tested contested actions the first thing we noticed was that you didn't get anything for succeeding. You had to get at least one hit. [/quote]
Ah, okay. Very good point. The intent is that a success always gives you at least one Hit. So if you beat the other guy by 1, that's a Hit. Anything on top of that gives you multiple Hits. If his Trait is d6, a margin of success of 1 gives you 1 Hit, 3 gives you 2 Hits, 6 gives you 3 Hits.



I think. At least, I think it'd be pretty shitty if it [i]didn't[/i] work like that.


[quote]So, I first solution was if you one the roll but didn't get a hit you got +2 steps on your next roll (similar to combat). Our problem with this was that we weren't sure if those steps could be applied to any dice or just traits. Since, you stated that they can be applied to any dice I think this would resolve high level contested conflicts.[/quote]
The only problem with this is that it caps out at d12, and if you're dealing with a pool of d10s and d12s to begin with, its impact would be pretty limited.


[quote]
Here is my character

[b]Dr Ido[/b]



Human d12

Horrific d4[/quote]

Congrats on being all human!

Mike Olson
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Post by devlin1 »


[quote="cczernia"]Some other thoughts:



We weren't too sure when to use bonds. Examples given showed that we could use a trust bond if we are fighting with that person even if the trust issue isn't really relevant. However, the betray examples are all specific to the person and issue.[/quote]

That's a good point. It's been suggested that I drop the specifics of the Bonds, and just make it a flat "DJ Beastly: d6, Dr. Ido: d8" and so on. I think that misses out on the actual connections and background Bonds let you create, a little like SotC's phases.



I don't have a problem with trust, distrust, and loyalty all being fairly generic, and just providing background flavor, while betrayal is specific -- I'd like to think flat-out betrayal ought to be fairly circumstantial.


[quote]Everything felt fairly balanced. We gave as good as we got in two combats. Game is vicious and I could see us becoming a horror or dying in 3 to 4 sessions.[/quote]
That's really great to hear. That's how I want it to feel: dangerous.


[quote]When we were fighting five humanist soldiers Mordraine had some difficulty keeping track of what the soldiers needed to roll as they took wounds. It took him a while to calculate the dice needed.[/quote]
What, because of their Wounds? Yeah... I can see that being a bit of a bear. That whole steps-back-with-Wounds thing may be more trouble than it's worth. Initially, I was going to have Wounds grant steps [i]forward [/i]to attackers, but I thought it might be harder to track. Maybe I should just limit it to PCs.


[quote]That fight with the horror was not easy. I think I just got two lucky rolls in a roe.[/quote]
Okay, that's good news. I went back and looked at the hookface's stats, and I was like, "[i]This [/i]wasn't a challenge?"

Mike Olson
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Post by Cthulhu »


[quote="devlin1"]So if you beat the other guy by 1, that's a Hit. Anything on top of that gives you multiple Hits. If his Trait is d6, a margin of success of 1 gives you 1 Hit, 3 gives you 2 Hits, 6 gives you 3 Hits.[/quote]

That's what I thought it should be.



Here's my PC



[b]Jimbo Williams[/b]



Human d8

Horrific d8



Phys Def: 10

Mental Def: 10

Vigor: 2

Spirit: 3

Initiative: 10 (per house rule)



TRAITS

d12 Mechanical

d10 Resourceful

d8 Drive, Strong

d6 Combative, Resolute, Perceptive

d4 Friendly, Horrors, Athletic, Intimidating, Scientific



BONDS

I Trust Dr Ido because she's an honest woman.

I Distrust DJ Beastly because he's more horrific than I'm comfortable with.

I'm Loyal to Gray because he saved my life.

I'd Betray Gray for my own life.



TOOLS

Tool Kit (d6)

Large Crowbar(d6)



GRAFTS

Beard (Large feathery feelers like moth antennae, used for Perception and Resourceful mostly)



Squirmy Muscles (Muscles writhe like snakes and worms under the skin, used for Strong and Combative)



Late in the game, Jimbo's accumulated wounds nearly killed him and he subjected himself to another graft to survive. He ended up with the hookfaces tentacle and lamprey mouth coming out of his chest. Cool stuff.

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Post by Skyman »


[quote="Cthulhu"]


Late in the game, Jimbo's accumulated wounds nearly killed him and he subjected himself to another graft to survive. He ended up with the hookfaces tentacle and [b]lamprey mouth coming out of his chest[/b]. Cool stuff.[/quote]


Wow I like the sound of this game already!

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Post by devlin1 »


[quote="Cthulhu"]That's what I thought it should be.[/quote]
Looking at the rules as written, I see that's exactly what it isn't. Consider it fixed. My only concern is a disparity between how conflicts work and how combats work, but... hopefully that won't be a big deal.


[quote]GRAFTS

Beard (Large feathery feelers like moth antennae, used for Perception and Resourceful mostly)



Squirmy Muscles (Muscles writhe like snakes and worms under the skin, used for Strong and Combative)[/quote]

These are both weird, which is good. Squirmy Muscles isn't really what I had in mind for Grafts, but whatever. I'm not going to tell someone else how to have fun.


[quote]Late in the game, Jimbo's accumulated wounds nearly killed him and he subjected himself to another graft to survive. He ended up with the hookfaces tentacle and lamprey mouth coming out of his chest. Cool stuff.[/quote]
That's awesome. I definitely need something that equates Wounds taken with types of Grafts can be justified -- for example, if you've taken 2 Wounds, you can reasonably say you lost a hand, and if you've taken 3 Wounds, you can claim to have a mangled or severed arm. That kind of thing. It'd determine hit location retroactively, as it were, so you aren't chopping off a hand to get a Graft so you can heal your Wounds.

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Post by cczernia »


[quote="devlin1"]Looking at the rules as written, I see that's exactly what it isn't. Consider it fixed. My only concern is a disparity between how conflicts work and how combats work, but... hopefully that won't be a big deal.
[/quote]


Actually, I really like that you need at least one hit to win the contested action. Also, it is extremely unlikely that a player will have maxed out dice but you could have that if players can not increase their steps any higher they get an extra die starting at d4.

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Post by devlin1 »


[quote="cczernia"]Actually, I really like that you need at least one hit to win the contested action. [/quote]
Can I ask why?



To me it feels like saying your target number is always X more than your opponent's total, when it's just more intuitive to aim for the total itself.


[quote]Also, it is extremely unlikely that a player will have maxed out dice but you could have that if players can not increase their steps any higher they get an extra die starting at d4.[/quote]
I guess. I don't like adding more dice to the pool that don't correspond on a 1:1 basis with a Trait, Tool, or something else. Y'know? I mean, it seems viable, but it rubs me the wrong way for some reason. I'm tempted to change it from steps forward for you to steps back for the other guy -- or once all your dice are maxed out, any further steps forward to which you're entitled become steps [i]back [/i]for your opponent.

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Post by cczernia »


[quote="devlin1"]Can I ask why?



To me it feels like saying your target number is always X more than your opponent's total, when it's just more intuitive to aim for the total itself.[/quote]


The main reason is that it is consistent with combat and makes it feel like a mini combat. That is the reason I suggested that if you win the roll but don't score a hit you get +2 step.




[quote="devlin1"]I guess. I don't like adding more dice to the pool that don't correspond on a 1:1 basis with a Trait, Tool, or something else. Y'know? I mean, it seems viable, but it rubs me the wrong way for some reason. I'm tempted to change it from steps forward for you to steps back for the other guy -- or once all your dice are maxed out, any further steps forward to which you're entitled become steps [i]back [/i]for your opponent.[/quote]

Well, honestly I don't think having maxed dice without steps will come up often. d12 without steps I think are only available for full human, and your max trait. Maybe a tool if your max trait is resourceful.



The maxed out values didn't actually come up in we play. We just noticed the possibility of a problem in the rules and decided to test it and make you aware.



Anyway, I think you should make contested conflicts and combat as close as possible.

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Post by cczernia »

A few more thoughts

If you kill or rob a NPC and get his weapon that he was using as a d8 tool do you get that d8 tool.

You can keep the specific bonds but if the action is not related to trust/betrayal/loyalty/distrust the die is at -1 step.

When choosing bonds you should be allowed to apply some of them to NPCs to help populate the world. I would require at least one bond being for a NPC and one a PC.
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Post by devlin1 »


[quote="cczernia"]The main reason is that it is consistent with combat and makes it feel like a mini combat. That is the reason I suggested that if you win the roll but don't score a hit you get +2 step.[/quote]
That's appealing to me as well -- I [i]do[/i] want conflicts to feel as interesting as combat.


[quote]Well, honestly I don't think having maxed dice without steps will come up often. d12 without steps I think are only available for full human, and your max trait. Maybe a tool if your max trait is resourceful. [/quote]
There are no advancement rules yet, but I was planning on having some of those. Theoretically that could result in "the problem."


[quote="cczernia"]If you kill or rob a NPC and get his weapon that he was using as a d8 tool do you get that d8 tool.[/quote]
Yes -- Resourceful and Human Nature only limit possessions you can [i]start[/i] with, not what you can accumulate.


[quote]You can keep the specific bonds but if the action is not related to trust/betrayal/loyalty/distrust the die is at -1 step.[/quote]
My only real qualm with this is that it might take a lot of the shared-background element out of them. E.g., if I trust you because you saved my sister's life, it seems weird to me that that trust would only be relevant if my sister's life were in danger (again). That's not how trust works. If I trust you, that trust is always there (unless I also have reason to [i]dis[/i]trust you). Players would instead be encouraged to phrase them in the present tense -- "because he's good in a fight" or "because he has a jeep" -- and that doesn't appeal to me as much.



Betrayal's the only one that happens in the conditional future -- "I [i]would [/i]betray" -- which is probably why it feels different to me. Maybe distrust could be rephrased in a similar manner, so that it could only be applied in narrower circumstances.


[quote]When choosing bonds you should be allowed to apply some of them to NPCs to help populate the world. I would require at least one bond being for a NPC and one a PC.[/quote]
This is partially an artifact of the contest ingredient to include a mechanic for having emotional connections between characters. But I like the idea of having players help populate the world.



How about something like "I owe ____ a favor because ____" and "____ owes me one because ____"? Those are less about relationships and more about story hooks, which seems more appropriate for NPCs.

Mike Olson
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cczernia
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Post by cczernia »


[quote="devlin1"]
There are no advancement rules yet, but I was planning on having some of those. Theoretically that could result in "the problem."[/quote]


You already have some form of advancement rules with gain/loss of grafts, tools, bonds and your human/horrific changing. The only thing that doesn't really change is traits but given that you'll probably go graftmad or die I wouldn't worry too much about it. You could go with something similar to SotC and change trade out traits.

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Post by SpaceMonkey »

I thought it played fairly smoothly overall.

The fight with the horror could have easily gone the other way, it seemed to me. We just got kinda lucky (well not me, i was rolling like crap ;)

I thought Jimbo should have grafted that neck onto his back, and then it could hang over his shoulder and he'd have like 2 faces (well one face and a face-mouth, but whatever).

I don't have my full character sheet (index card) here, but I was DJ Beastly. He used to be (and still is) a horrible rapper, but now has cricket-like legs, a little prehensile devil-tail, odd head-tendril things, and a single bat ear on the top of his head. We each took one of the 'levels' on the humanity/horror spectrum - can you guess which end my guy landed on? :naughty:
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