Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 3E

[devlin1]

Has anyone been keeping up with the forthcoming WFRP 3rd edition? I only just started reading about it yesterday, but man... I'm intrigued. The die mechanic is a more well-thought-out version of a non-numerical die system I was struggling with a couple years ago.

[cczernia]

[quote="devlin1"]Has anyone been keeping up with the forthcoming [url=http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite.asp?eidm=93]WFRP 3rd edition[/url]? I only just started reading about it yesterday, but man... I'm intrigued. The die mechanic is a more well-thought-out version of a non-numerical die system I was struggling with a couple years ago.[/quote]

Could be cool. Looks a lot like Descent which I can't stand (do the mindless dungeon crawling) but I think the mechanics are kind of cool. I actually kind of looking forward to this as I don't care for the current percentile system in WH.

[Count Zero]

Do you guys know when this is coming out?

[devlin1]

[quote="Count Zero"]Do you guys know when this is coming out?[/quote]
Later this year, IIRC.

[mordraine]

Gulp... hefty price tag!

[devlin1]

[quote="mordraine"]Gulp... hefty price tag![/quote]
Yeah, much has been made of that on RPG.net. Some people come back with "Well, that's how much the three core 4E books cost!" That's true, if you enjoy spending money so much that you buy them individually at Barnes & Noble. If you buy them as a set on Amazon, of course, it's more like $60 -- less if you get them used. I have a feeling it'll be possible to pick this up at a similar discount elsewhere on the Internet.

[Dragonmaster Zoc]

This is the first I've heard about it, so obviously I'd need to learn more before I can have an opinion. I am always cautious about new dice mechanics, since it's difficult to tell whether it's actually better or just "different"; has anyone seen a preview of how they work?

[devlin1]

[quote="Dragonmaster Zoc"]This is the first I've heard about it, so obviously I'd need to learn more before I can have an opinion. I am always cautious about new dice mechanics, since it's difficult to tell whether it's actually better or just "different"; has anyone seen a preview of how they work?[/quote]
There's a video of gameplay on YouTube, I believe -- I heard they showed it at GenCon. I haven't seen it, though.

[Count Zero]

[quote="devlin1"]Yeah, much has been made of that on RPG.net. Some people come back with "Well, that's how much the three core 4E books cost!" That's true, if you enjoy spending money so much that you buy them individually at Barnes & Noble. If you buy them as a set on Amazon, of course, it's more like $60 -- less if you get them used. I have a feeling it'll be possible to pick this up at a similar discount elsewhere on the Internet.[/quote]

True, but we easily spend $100 bucks on a new game and we don't even get cool playing pieces or anything else. The other companies do a good job of spacing the costs out so we don't realize. I have no doubt that this will be up on Amazon at a dirt cheap price too. :P

[cczernia]

[quote="Count Zero"]True, but we easily spend $100 bucks on a new game and we don't even get cool playing pieces or anything else. The other companies do a good job of spacing the costs out so we don't realize. [/quote]

Other than D&D I can't think of any other games that come close to $100 to start playing. Most games have supplemental items (dice, screens, etc) but they are no means required to play and most people I know will forgo most of that.



I would say the average entry cost for most rpgs is $40 - $60.

[devlin1]

[quote="cczernia"]Most games have supplemental items (dice, screens, etc) but they are no means required to play and most people I know will forgo most of that.[/quote]
Well... assuming you already [i]have[/i] the dice, of course. But yeah, that's a pretty negligible expense compared to what you'd pay for the book(s) (unless the book is Savage Worlds Explorer's Edition, or Wild Talents Essential Edition, in which case you might spend almost as much on dice as you do on the book).



With traditional RPGs, especially well-established ones like WFRP, splats and etc. are both commonplace and fairly expected purchases. Surely there'll be some more stuff that comes out for WFRP 3E, but that initial outlay [i]does[/i] seem to give you everything you need -- dice, character sheets (or their version of them), minis, etc. -- for the [i]whole group[/i]. I don't think it's unreasonable to guess that out of five players in a D&D group, four or five of them will have PHBs (or D&DI subscriptions...) and at least one other splatbook. That's something like $60 (or more) per player, so $240 total, at a conservative estimate. That's not counting the DM's books. Let's call it a $320 investment from the entire group.



Split that $100 (or $80, I'm willing to bet, if you buy it off some other site) for WFRP 3E four or five ways, and the equivalent buy-in for each player is pretty minimal in comparison.

[mordraine]

[quote="devlin1"]With traditional RPGs, especially well-established ones like WFRP, splats and etc. are both commonplace and fairly expected purchases.[/quote]

I don't usually buy splat books, and I'd bet an analysis of sales figures for splats vs. core books will show that a lot of other people don't either.


[quote="devlin1"]Surely there'll be some more stuff that comes out for WFRP 3E, but that initial outlay [i]does[/i] seem to give you everything you need -- dice, character sheets (or their version of them), minis, etc. -- for the [i]whole group[/i].[/quote]

It comes with minis? I didn't see anything about that on the website. There are power cards (which gives me pause, personally), and something called "party sheets" whatever that is. But I didn't see anything on the website that mentions minis. It'd be cool if there was, though.



I'm a little skeptical of those dice. For one thing, you're forced to buy 'em. You can't use dice you already have. These are "special" dice. For another - there are over 30 types, according to the website. Yikes! Crunch much?

[devlin1]

[quote="mordraine"]I don't usually buy splat books, and I'd bet an analysis of sales figures for splats vs. core books will show that a lot of other people don't either.[/quote]
It depends on the game, I think. I'd be willing to bet that a healthy percentage of Savage Worlds and nWoD players own something besides the core rules. I don't think I even know a regular D&D player who [i]only[/i] owns the PHB.


[quote]It comes with minis? I didn't see anything about that on the website. There are power cards (which gives me pause, personally), and something called "party sheets" whatever that is. But I didn't see anything on the website that mentions minis. It'd be cool if there was, though.[/quote]
Party sheets are... well, the way they do parties (i.e., groups of PCs) is really meta. At character creation, you're expected to ask yourselves, "Okay, why are these guys together?" The answer to that question is your party sheet -- your party uses the party sheet that's most applicable to their "theme." The idea seems to be that they want to provide a mechanical benefit for being all themed-up. I don't fully understand all the ins and outs myself, but I get what they're going for.



Coulda sworn it had minis. If it doesn't, then scratch that.


[quote]I'm a little skeptical of those dice. For one thing, you're forced to buy 'em. You can't use dice you already have. These are "special" dice. For another - there are over 30 types, according to the website. Yikes! Crunch much?[/quote]
I don't know if "forced to buy 'em" is really a fair criticism, considering they're part of the boxed set. That'd be like saying TSR forced you to buy dice with the Basic boxed set. And there really aren't 30 types -- just 30 [i]dice[/i]. There are only, like, five or six different types: challenge, fortune, misfortune, skill, and the two stances -- I think. There might be one more, and those probably aren't the correct names. I'm not looking it up right now.



Anyway, I think the die mechanic's pretty ingenious. It's a little like ORE, in that one roll gives you everything you need to know, except that instead of making all the dice the same, some are swapped out for other dice to account for special circumstances. Out of those 30 dice, I seriously doubt you'd be rolling any more than six or eight at a time.

[mordraine]

[quote="devlin1"]It depends on the game, I think. I'd be willing to bet that a healthy percentage of Savage Worlds and nWoD players own something besides the core rules. I don't think I even know a regular D&D player who [i]only[/i] owns the PHB.[/quote]

OK, semantics are getting in our way I think. I don't consider Savage Worlds or nWoD settings to be splat books. I also don't consider DM Guide and Monster Manual to be splat books either. But even so, I'll still bet that the Savage Worlds core book sold more copies than any individual setting book.



When I think of splat books, I'm thinking books that are dedicated to a certain class or archetype or race (or kith or clan or tribe or what have you). So, going by my definition, is any of that included in the core set for WHFRP3? If so, I'd consider that unneeded for a core-set. If they have a players book and a GM book and a setting book then that would be normal.


[quote="devlin1"]I don't know if "forced to buy 'em" is really a fair criticism, considering they're part of the boxed set. That'd be like saying TSR forced you to buy dice with the Basic boxed set.[/quote]

Yes it is (being forced) and sure they did (TSR).



Of course, back then NO ONE really had those dice around at the very beginning, and it was a novelty. Nowadays (to me anyway) it seems extraneous to invent an entirely new set of dice when there are already a bunch out there that are perfectly good to use, and in practically endless supply for gamers. And if you only have to roll six or eight at a time, why do they include 30?! Seriously, 30 dice seems like a buttload. And they look like pretty decent quality dice. Something you'd spend maybe 60 or 75 cents each on individually, maybe more with the custom characters cut into them. I'm not sure how much that adds to the cost, but if they used regular dice and skipped adding 'em to the box set, it would no doubt be cheaper.

[devlin1]

[quote="mordraine"]OK, semantics are getting in our way I think. I don't consider Savage Worlds or nWoD settings to be splat books. I also don't consider DM Guide and Monster Manual to be splat books either. But even so, I'll still bet that the Savage Worlds core book sold more copies than any individual setting book.



When I think of splat books, I'm thinking books that are dedicated to a certain class or archetype or race (or kith or clan or tribe or what have you). So, going by my definition, is any of that included in the core set for WHFRP3? If so, I'd consider that unneeded for a core-set. If they have a players book and a GM book and a setting book then that would be normal.[/quote]
Fair enough -- that is the canon definition of "splat book." I actually mean, like, anything besides the PHB: Martial Power, Arcane Power, Divine Power, Adventurer's Vaults 1 and 2, etc. Coincidentally, there's a thread on RPG.net on this very issue.


[quote]Of course, back then NO ONE really had those dice around at the very beginning, and it was a novelty. Nowadays (to me anyway) it seems extraneous to invent an entirely new set of dice when there are already a bunch out there that are perfectly good to use, and in practically endless supply for gamers. [/quote]
I don't know if you've seen the dice in question, but they really aren't like any dice you already have. That's like saying HEX shouldn't use Ubiquity dice, or FATE shouldn't use Fudge dice, because there are already lots of other polyhedral dice out there.


[quote]And if you only have to roll six or eight at a time, why do they include 30?! [/quote]
Because there are like five or six of each type, and every time you roll you'll be rolling various types in different combinations.


[quote]I'm not sure how much that adds to the cost, but if they used regular dice and skipped adding 'em to the box set, it would no doubt be cheaper.[/quote]
It'd also be a much different game.



Seriously, if you haven't read how the die mechanic works, I suggest you check it out. It's very different from, I think, any other game I've seen. If it's both innovative [i]and[/i] cool -- jury's still out, in all fairness -- I think that's a [i]good[/i] thing, personally.

[Dragonmaster Zoc]

Can we use regular dice to substitute for the specialty dice? Unless they are a completely unique shape with odd numbers of faces, you should be able to just map it over and people will learn how to translate the dice pretty quickly.

I'm really not a huge fan of meta- anything, and it sounds like I would probably not like this system very much. I am a fan of more simulationist fare, with acceptable breaks from reality being only those things that make the game easier to play.

Of course, any game is worth trying once. I'm not going to buy the books unless I know they'll get use, though.

[mordraine]

[quote="devlin1"]Coincidentally, there's a thread on RPG.net on this very issue.[/quote]

I'd check it out but it's probably already 30 pages long. I think the Powers books qualify as splat book, incidentally, whereas treasure books, not really. To me, the term "splat" has a definite meaning. All of this, of course, is completely besides the point.


[quote="devlin1"]That's like saying HEX shouldn't use Ubiquity dice, or FATE shouldn't use Fudge dice, because there are already lots of other polyhedral dice out there. [/quote]

Now that you mention it...



(Also you can use HEX and FATE with standard dice.)


[quote="devlin1"]Because there are like five or six of each type, and every time you roll you'll be rolling various types in different combinations.[/quote]

This still sounds really crunchy to me. Is there an easy way to determine which combination of dice must be rolled? Is there an easy way to determine the meaning of the rolls? How intuitive is it? How much can be memorized vs. how much do you need tables for?


[quote="devlin1"]Seriously, if you haven't read how the die mechanic works, I suggest you check it out.[/quote]

To be fair, I haven't checked it out. Everything about this game so far is adding up to me not really being that interested (price, dice, power cards...). But I will read the die mechanic (is it on the website, BTW?).

[cczernia]

[quote="devlin1"]
With traditional RPGs, especially well-established ones like WFRP, splats and etc. are both commonplace and fairly expected purchases. Surely there'll be some more stuff that comes out for WFRP 3E, but that initial outlay [i]does[/i] seem to give you everything you need -- dice, character sheets (or their version of them), minis, etc. -- for the [i]whole group[/i]. I don't think it's unreasonable to guess that out of five players in a D&D group, four or five of them will have PHBs (or D&DI subscriptions...) and at least one other splatbook. That's something like $60 (or more) per player, so $240 total, at a conservative estimate. That's not counting the DM's books. Let's call it a $320 investment from the entire group.



Split that $100 (or $80, I'm willing to bet, if you buy it off some other site) for WFRP 3E four or five ways, and the equivalent buy-in for each player is pretty minimal in comparison.[/quote]

I said D&D would be the exception for buy in because of its fan base. Also, a group that just wants to start playing D&D just needs the core 3 books. Not every player needs a core book. Most games you will have 1-3 copies of the core book if you are lucky unless that is the only game you play.



Also, there is no requirement for each player to buy a book, you only need one (more makes it convenient).



Also, we are talking about Fantasy Flight here who makes supplements for boardgames. They will be making supplements for WHRP3e that are just as relevant as any other supplement to any other rpg.



So, no matter how you spin it WHRP3e is extremely expensive compared to the average roleplaying game.



I'm still curious to see how it plays but I'll try it out first before buying it.

[Count Zero]

I think the one mistake the game companies make is not charging enough for their product. The standard cost for a book is $30, but if you were buying a specialize niche book that wasn't an RPG book, you would probably pay a lot more for it.

Part of this just seems that FFG is trying to actually make money from their product. The problem is that gamers are still used to getting a specialty book, full color for 30 bucks.

It reminds me of people complaining about L4D2 coming out, rather than Valve releasing free expansions for L4D. I mean really, these people are trying to pay their bills, they can't really go cheap. If making sure their staff has health care and a decent wage, then I will gladly pay $100 bucks for the product.

I have the feeling we have been getting our products on the cheap for quiet some time because, as gamers, we tend to be cheap skates.

[mordraine]

[quote="Count Zero"]I think the one mistake the game companies make is not charging enough for their product. The standard cost for a book is $30, but if you were buying a specialize niche book that wasn't an RPG book, you would probably pay a lot more for it.[/quote]

Not that I'm being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative, but can you give examples of specialty books you mean? I'm not thinking of any.



Really, the only other books I buy are novels. Paperbacks are around $8 or $9. Trades are around $18, hard covers are around $25.



If gaming books were more than $30~$40, I think I would buy a lot less of them.



Also, a lot of gaming companies are going with the "pocketbook" versions, and charging even less, which I think is an awesome business plan.


[quote="Count Zero"]I have the feeling we have been getting our products on the cheap for quiet some time because, as gamers, we tend to be cheap skates. :biggrin:[/quote]

I think gaming companies have to walk a tight rope here. It's just plain economics - what will the market bear? All the gaming companies are essentially competing with each other for our gaming dollars. They can't go crazy with pricing because they'll be buried by the other companies who offer cheaper books.



The gaming community is a big enough slice of demographics that I don't think you can paint 'em all with the "cheapskate" brush. I don't consider myself a cheapskate (especially when it comes to gaming!), but I know where my pricing expectations are for purchasing a gaming book. And if they cost more, I would definitely be buying less. Just taking me as a sample, that would seem to be bad for the gaming industry.

[cczernia]

[quote="Count Zero"]I think the one mistake the game companies make is not charging enough for their product. The standard cost for a book is $30, but if you were buying a specialize niche book that wasn't an RPG book, you would probably pay a lot more for it.



Part of this just seems that FFG is trying to actually make money from their product. The problem is that gamers are still used to getting a specialty book, full color for 30 bucks.



It reminds me of people complaining about L4D2 coming out, rather than Valve releasing free expansions for L4D. I mean really, these people are trying to pay their bills, they can't really go cheap. If making sure their staff has health care and a decent wage, then I will gladly pay $100 bucks for the product.



I have the feeling we have been getting our products on the cheap for quiet some time because, as gamers, we tend to be cheap skates. :biggrin:[/quote]

Well, most hardcover, full color books are going between $40-$60.



Rogue Trader $60

Pathfinder $50

Eclipse Phase $50



Also, if you look at the indie games a lot of them may only be $20 but they are usually small 100-200 perfect bound books that would normally be $7 if they were being sold in a bookstore.



So, I don't think there is a problem with markup. However, if they make it too expensive than no one buys it.



Also, I wouldn't get into the business of rpgs for the money and benefits. WotC has had layoffs for the last 3 years and I don't think it has anything to do with the price of their books.



Even WotC has a $15 entry version of D&D that includes rules and characters up to 3rd level, punch out tiles, dice, and punch out counters for minis.

[cczernia]

[quote="mordraine"]
I think gaming companies have to walk a tight rope here. It's just plain economics - what will the market bear? All the gaming companies are essentially competing with each other for our gaming dollars. They can't go crazy with pricing because they'll be buried by the other companies who offer cheaper books.
[/quote]

I kind of interested in how this turns out because I think Fantasy Flight is taking an interesting risk. Most rpgers are not use to paying $100 for a game. They are also alienating the original WHFR fanbase with a completely new system.



However, the new version looks like an easy entry point for players of D&D4 ($104) and Descent ($90) who a both use to paying more to get into a game.